A classic example of the school bully aggressing the weaker kid
a major incursion && blowing up bridges, because of one (!!!) soldier?! waw. talk of overkill (pun entirely intentional)
Israeli planes hit Gaza bridges
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Brains
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I am curious Brains ( I honestly couldn't care less about many international affairs ) but what would you do..? If you were the leader of the country...More imporantly, what woudl you want done if it were you being held captive..?
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Buffmaster
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Well Brains, maybe the weaker kid could stop fucking with the big kid. Israel has every right to defend itself, they move in to tackle the problem because they have come to know that you can't reason with these people. The only way to get them to stop is the total destruction of the Israeli state.
I borrowed the following information from the Yahoo Encyclopedia , hopefully this will help you understand that Israel was there first and it was also promised to them by God.
In the Bible, Palestine is called Canaan before the invasion of Joshua; the usual Hebrew name is Eretz Israel [land of Israel]. Palestine is the Holy Land of Jews, having been promised to them by God; of Christians because it was the scene of Jesus' life; and of Muslims because they consider Islam to be the heir of Judaism and Christianity and because Jerusalem is the site, according to Muslim tradition, of Muhammad's ascent to heaven. The Holy Land derives its special character from being a place of pilgrimage. Shrines, shared in common by several religions, cluster most numerously in and about Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Hebron.
Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods (see Herod). When the Jews revolted in 66, the Romans destroyed the Temple ( 70). Another revolt between 132 and 135 was also suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian pilgrimage, and many Jews left the region. Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.
At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œthe Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œand Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬?1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades), who established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were finally driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule Palestine declined.
Turkish Rule
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).
Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see Zionism) with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens of Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people were Arab peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the urban areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho, and Hebron).
At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle East in opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab aid, gained control of Palestine. In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to support the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed Palestine was to be among these, an intention that the British later denied.
In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and 58,000 Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine in 1920. The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922, although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As part of the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the Jewish homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British stressed that their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all Palestine the homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine and that there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted (1922 White Paper).
In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish communities made great economic progress. In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab violence occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem. A British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald (1931).
The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great increase in immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in 1932, about 62,000 were authorized in 1935. Arabs conducted strikes and boycotts; a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed a guerrilla force. The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable and recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and British (largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting particularly to the proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the proposed Jewish state.
The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new policy (1939 White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to immigrate for the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject to Arab acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and within 10 years an independent, binational Palestine would be established. The Zionists were shocked by what they considered a betrayal of the Balfour Declaration. The Arabs also rejected the plan, demanding instead the immediate creation of an Arab Palestine, the prohibition of further immigration, and a review of the status of all Jewish immigrants since 1918.
The outbreak of World War II prevented the implementation of the plan, except for the restriction on land transfers. The Zionists and most Arabs supported Britain in the war (although Haj Amin al Husayni was in Germany and negotiated Palestine's future with Hitler), but tension inside Palestine increased. The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency, and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British officials were killed by the terrorists. The horrible plight of European Jewry led influential forces in the United States to lobby for support of an independent Jewish state, and President Truman requested that Britain permit the admission of 100,000 Jews. Illegal immigration, often involving survivors of Hitler's death camps, took place on a large scale. The independent Arab states organized the Arab League to exert internationally what pressure they could against the Zionists.
An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and admit 100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded. A plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no agreement could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000 Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
I borrowed the following information from the Yahoo Encyclopedia , hopefully this will help you understand that Israel was there first and it was also promised to them by God.
In the Bible, Palestine is called Canaan before the invasion of Joshua; the usual Hebrew name is Eretz Israel [land of Israel]. Palestine is the Holy Land of Jews, having been promised to them by God; of Christians because it was the scene of Jesus' life; and of Muslims because they consider Islam to be the heir of Judaism and Christianity and because Jerusalem is the site, according to Muslim tradition, of Muhammad's ascent to heaven. The Holy Land derives its special character from being a place of pilgrimage. Shrines, shared in common by several religions, cluster most numerously in and about Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Hebron.
Palestine at the time of Jesus was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods (see Herod). When the Jews revolted in 66, the Romans destroyed the Temple ( 70). Another revolt between 132 and 135 was also suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), Palestine became a center of Christian pilgrimage, and many Jews left the region. Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640.
At this time (during the Umayyad rule), the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, and in 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
In the 9th cent., Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œthe Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œand Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬?1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders (see Crusades), who established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended; they were finally driven out of Palestine by the Mamluks in 1291. Under Mamluk rule Palestine declined.
Turkish Rule
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).
Conflict between Arabs and Zionists
In the late 19th cent. the Zionist movement was founded (see Zionism) with the goal of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and dozens of Zionist colonies were founded there. At the start of the Zionist colonization of Palestine in the late 19th cent., the rural people were Arab peasants (fellahin). Most of the population were Muslims, but in the urban areas there were sizable groups of Arab Christians (at Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem) and of Jews (at Zefat, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Jericho, and Hebron).
At the same time Arab nationalism was developing in the Middle East in opposition to Turkish rule. In World War I the British, with Arab aid, gained control of Palestine. In the Balfour Declaration (1917) the British promised Zionist leaders to aid the establishment of a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with due regard for the rights of non-Jewish Palestinians. However, the British had also promised Arab leaders to support the creation of independent Arab states. The Arabs believed Palestine was to be among these, an intention that the British later denied.
In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and 58,000 Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine in 1920. The League of Nations approved the British mandate in 1922, although the actual administration of the area had begun in 1920. As part of the mandate Britain was given the responsibility for aiding the Jewish homeland and fostering Jewish immigration there. The British stressed that their policy to aid the homeland did not include making all Palestine the homeland, but rather that such a home should exist within Palestine and that there were economic limits on how many immigrants should be admitted (1922 White Paper).
In the 1920s, Jewish immigration was slight, but the Jewish communities made great economic progress. In 1929 there was serious Jewish-Arab violence occasioned by a clash at the Western, or Wailing, Wall in Jerusalem. A British report found that Arabs feared the economic and political consequences of continued Jewish immigration with its attendant land purchases. Zionists were angered when a new White Paper (1930) urged limiting immigration, but they were placated by Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald (1931).
The rise of Nazism in Europe during the 1930s led to a great increase in immigration. Whereas there were about 5,000 immigrants authorized in 1932, about 62,000 were authorized in 1935. Arabs conducted strikes and boycotts; a general strike in 1936, organized by Haj Amin al Husayni, mufti of Jerusalem, lasted six months. Some Arabs acquired weapons and formed a guerrilla force. The Peel commission (1937), finding British promises to Zionists and Arabs irreconcilable, declared the mandate unworkable and recommended the partition of Palestine into Jewish, Arab, and British (largely the holy places) mandatory states. The Zionists reluctantly approved partition, but the Arabs rejected it, objecting particularly to the proposal that the Arab population be forcibly transferred out of the proposed Jewish state.
The British dropped the partition idea and announced a new policy (1939 White Paper). Fifteen thousand Jews a year would be allowed to immigrate for the next five years, after which Jewish immigration would be subject to Arab acquiescence; Jewish land purchases were to be restricted; and within 10 years an independent, binational Palestine would be established. The Zionists were shocked by what they considered a betrayal of the Balfour Declaration. The Arabs also rejected the plan, demanding instead the immediate creation of an Arab Palestine, the prohibition of further immigration, and a review of the status of all Jewish immigrants since 1918.
The outbreak of World War II prevented the implementation of the plan, except for the restriction on land transfers. The Zionists and most Arabs supported Britain in the war (although Haj Amin al Husayni was in Germany and negotiated Palestine's future with Hitler), but tension inside Palestine increased. The Haganah, a secret armed group organized by the Jewish Agency, and the Irgun and the Stern Gang, terrorist groups, were active. British officials were killed by the terrorists. The horrible plight of European Jewry led influential forces in the United States to lobby for support of an independent Jewish state, and President Truman requested that Britain permit the admission of 100,000 Jews. Illegal immigration, often involving survivors of Hitler's death camps, took place on a large scale. The independent Arab states organized the Arab League to exert internationally what pressure they could against the Zionists.
An Anglo-American commission recommended (1946) that Britain continue administering Palestine, rescind the land-transfer restrictions, and admit 100,000 Jews, and that the underground Jewish armed groups be disbanded. A plan for autonomy for Jews and Arabs within Palestine was discussed at a London conference (1947) of British, Arabs, and Zionists, but no agreement could be reached. The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000 Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
Big Red died 23 NOV 2001
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
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Buffmaster
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Facts on Israel
Big Red died 23 NOV 2001
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
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Buffmaster
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Arab-Israeli Wars
Big Red died 23 NOV 2001
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
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Buffmaster
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History of Israel, from 1850-present
Big Red died 23 NOV 2001
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
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Buffmaster
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Big Red died 23 NOV 2001
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
You owe your success to your first wife. You owe your second wife to your success---Sean Connery
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Brains
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first things first: this page gets redirected. all the time. @admins / mods: please fix.
if I were to rule Israel:
I would stop all aggression and start negotiation. I would have done that 15 years ago. I would work on intelligence to prevent suicide attacks and would know that my peaceful approach would eventually lead to stability.
if I were to rule PA:
I would recognize Israel and start negotiation. I would have done that 15 years ago. I would work on decreasing hatred towards Israel by promoting their positive actions towards the Palestinians. Of course, if I were confronted with Israeli aggression, that task would be nigh impossible. I would condemn any suicide attacks, telling it is not the solution, but would at the same time express understanding of the Palestinian people's despair regarding that Israeli aggression.
@bm: history is entirely irrelevant. we live in the present, never mind what the past (or the bible haha) says. If it were relevant the US should be given back to the native americans as well, now would it not? At this moment, there are two states. One has a high number of casualties and no army to respond with. One has a lower number of casualties and a huge army which it uses all the time.
Bridges destroyed? Power plants?! Water systems?!?!? Because of ___ONE___ soldier?!?!?!??!!? We had about 20 Palestinian CITIZENS killed this month alone!! Do you agree that the Palestinian should revenge these deaths as well?
if I were to rule Israel:
I would stop all aggression and start negotiation. I would have done that 15 years ago. I would work on intelligence to prevent suicide attacks and would know that my peaceful approach would eventually lead to stability.
if I were to rule PA:
I would recognize Israel and start negotiation. I would have done that 15 years ago. I would work on decreasing hatred towards Israel by promoting their positive actions towards the Palestinians. Of course, if I were confronted with Israeli aggression, that task would be nigh impossible. I would condemn any suicide attacks, telling it is not the solution, but would at the same time express understanding of the Palestinian people's despair regarding that Israeli aggression.
@bm: history is entirely irrelevant. we live in the present, never mind what the past (or the bible haha) says. If it were relevant the US should be given back to the native americans as well, now would it not? At this moment, there are two states. One has a high number of casualties and no army to respond with. One has a lower number of casualties and a huge army which it uses all the time.
Bridges destroyed? Power plants?! Water systems?!?!? Because of ___ONE___ soldier?!?!?!??!!? We had about 20 Palestinian CITIZENS killed this month alone!! Do you agree that the Palestinian should revenge these deaths as well?
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Bot
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You're living in a fantasy world, man. You know nothing about Israel. You can't even be bothered to read up on the history of the conflict between the two groups. And lmao @ I would work on intelligence to prevent suicide attacks. This all goes back to the bullshit with 9/11. You know nothing about intelligence.
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Brains
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you are a jew Kramer and biased - much like these sites I am supposed to read up on to "understand" the conflict.
you are a fool as well thinking that you get fair information from any which source you choose - like the ones bm posted.
you are blind thinking that Israel is correctly approaching this.
you are brainless supporting your country the way it acts now.
you are unethical agreeing with the devastation Israel causes towards Palestinian civilians.
you are a hypocrit vilifying PA's terrorism while agreeing with Israel's.
now before you tell me what I know and what I don't; it might be good to look at yourself and ask some questions. What does this IS incursion mean to the PA's? How exactly does it help the conflict? Is destroying so much property and killing that many civilians worth it against a group who said it would not kill the captive? And so on...
about the fantasy world: you are fucking damn straight it is a fantasy world I portrayed.
"I am curious Brains but what would you do..? If you were the leader of the country.", was the question. I only answered it! Is it realistic? Well duh! Apparently not with all that Israeli (and pa) aggression going on for years and years!
Intelligence? If I were the leader of the country, I would not be the intelligence expert, would I be? Both jobs seem like full-time, no? With the latter being a monstruous team effort. The leader does not need to be the expert, the experts do!
really. what the hell was your post about?
you are a fool as well thinking that you get fair information from any which source you choose - like the ones bm posted.
you are blind thinking that Israel is correctly approaching this.
you are brainless supporting your country the way it acts now.
you are unethical agreeing with the devastation Israel causes towards Palestinian civilians.
you are a hypocrit vilifying PA's terrorism while agreeing with Israel's.
now before you tell me what I know and what I don't; it might be good to look at yourself and ask some questions. What does this IS incursion mean to the PA's? How exactly does it help the conflict? Is destroying so much property and killing that many civilians worth it against a group who said it would not kill the captive? And so on...
about the fantasy world: you are fucking damn straight it is a fantasy world I portrayed.
"I am curious Brains but what would you do..? If you were the leader of the country.", was the question. I only answered it! Is it realistic? Well duh! Apparently not with all that Israeli (and pa) aggression going on for years and years!
Intelligence? If I were the leader of the country, I would not be the intelligence expert, would I be? Both jobs seem like full-time, no? With the latter being a monstruous team effort. The leader does not need to be the expert, the experts do!
really. what the hell was your post about?
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