Chance: The Only True Freedom

[Aemeth]

I am brought back to VU by a timely combination of Spring Break hitting and a interesting thought I had...

The free will/determinism debate has entertained minds since the beginning (the beginning of time if you prefer cliche redundancies). Even if you embrace a free will line of thought, you have to be a touch naive to think that you are acting completely freely when you make decisions. Maybe outside factors such as your environment and culture do not influence you enough to void responsibility for your actions, but c'mon, every decision you make is somewhat, even if just slightly, influenced by something other than your free will.

I cannot decide what to do on Friday night. Should I get plastered, or write a research paper for VU 101? For the determinist, the choice is already made. For the man of freedom, mom says write the essay but your buddies say shotgun the damn beer. The choice is yours, but it is not completely free thanks to ma and the boys.

Am I wrong in saying the only way to make a truly free decision is to leave it up to a coin flip, or another mechanism of chance? Even Skinner and Freud would have to admit that in this case, behaviorism can get you to flip the coin, but the outcome escapes determinism!

Could it be that by embracing something as fatalistic as a coin flip is the only way to actually control our fate???!!

Could it be that calling upon a freedom that is out of our control is the only way to actually own our own freedom???!!!

:D

[Aemeth]

...........

[trashtalkr]

Even flipping a coin isn't a matter of chance - it's a matter of the law of nature and gravity that's on it. Knowing the force you use to flip the coin times the height from the ground will be able to determine on what side the coin will land. Nothing is done by chance. Nothing

[Aemeth]

Ok technically that's true, but I have yet to meet someone who feels that their coin flipping ability is on a level where they feel that they can align the flip with the principles of gravity in a way that achieves a desired result...

[raum]

The only true freedom is not giving a damn what mom and the boys want you to do, and do both. Shotgun the beer and then get to writing! or just hit the pub with the boys and carry a pen and pad - or a voice recorder.

I used to be indecisive alot unless there was a state of emergency or urgency - too many factors to consider. then, I started flipping coins, and I found that as the coin was in the air, I would make my decision... not knowing or caring which way it would land. Many times I would start doing what I wanted and not even stay to catch the coin. Now, I don't need to waste the coin. I just don't give a fuck.

[AYHJA]

CDR @ raum..! Dude you're at your best when you're like this, lmao...

OK...Let's try to work our way into this...The general idea is this: "acting completely freely when you make decisions" right..? Well, maybe this is more complex than I make it out to be...But isn't that what "free" is about..? Being able to do what you want, have the choice to do what you want..? The only way its not free is if you're forced to, right..? And then, you could say nobody could force you to do anything, but...You'd be wrong, lol...

You go to the spot with your friends, and the ribs are free...You can have some, or you can pass...What factors weigh in on that beside your will..? Even if you're full, or not hungry, nothing can stop you from helping yourself without monetary compensation...

Just because you can weigh the pros and cons of a situation doesn't mean its void of free will does it..?

[raum]

CDR @ raum..! Dude you're at your best when you're like this, lmao...

uh oh, looks like I gotta a fan... heh

OK...Let's try to work our way into this...The general idea is this: "acting completely freely when you make decisions" right..? Well, maybe this is more complex than I make it out to be...But isn't that what "free" is about..? Being able to do what you want, have the choice to do what you want..? The only way its not free is if you're forced to, right..? And then, you could say nobody could force you to do anything, but...You'd be wrong, lol...

That is my take on it. An informed decision is one you are still free to make. To me, the "free" decision is really the independent one. Like as independent film. I really this is one of the better analogies. "Independent film" is characterized by as the Producers and investors in a film not having a direct influence on it's direction, progression, casting or presentation. The ideas of product placement, high billed cast, a high profile soundtrack, or a common story mechanic wrapped around general social insecurities - these kill some films. Some movies require them - I would not want to see iron man filmed without the budget from a whored out script. It would be laughable. But some movies, that shit stands in the way.

But here is the irony: even in an indpendent film, Producers and Investors DO have a direct influence on the film, because in a constrained budget situation - much of what you can afford is donated. For example, you can be making a scene with a guy driving a semi in it... and your director's vision has to compromise or sacrifice that if you have no way of getting a big ass truck. Your semi scene might be scratched from your production - BUT if a person comes along with interest in your movie, and foots the bill for a weekend AVIS rental - you might be able to get a pickup truck. If not, you use your crew's cars and maybe scratch the chase scene altogether. Can't afford a prop gun, the scene has to be done with a knife.... But back to the semi scene - let's say you are at a comic store, and meet a guy who has a brother who is a trucker - he can get the semi, but his girl Nancy aways dreamed of being in a movie. and she wants to play a nurse cause she likes General Hospital, if you really want that truck, yo ass better see how she fits in - and hope to GOD that she can act - else your black semi becomes a red toyota matrix. Otherwise, if the truck is not really vital, scratch the truck before this becomes the adventures of Nurse Nancy. then again, with a real bit of direction, you can adapt her to your story.

so the real thing is that it does influence the movie, everything does when you are in production with limited funds - so the best you can hope for is that you are strong enough in your conviction to at least not give a fuck and force your vision to contain the sacrifices you have to make, or filter out the parts of your production that irrevocably are not in accordance with your direction.

go to the spot with your friends, and the ribs are free...You can have some, or you can pass...What factors weigh in on that beside your will..? Even if you're full, or not hungry, nothing can stop you from helping yourself without monetary compensation...

yup, hell you can go with them for the free ribs - and get a grilled chicken sandwich if that shit is nasty.

Just because you can weigh the pros and cons of a situation doesn't mean its void of free will does it..?

Absolutely not! And informed decision is not an impedence to free choice. In fact, as you mature, your uniformed decisions, you find, are really the ones where you have the least control, and thus the least freedom - because you can only assume their outcome with a modicum of expectation.

But what I find is when the coin is in the air, I, and maybe you, usually start feeling a desire for the "heads" or the "tails." In Aemeth's example - you know you want to go hang with the boys and pop a brew, but you know you *should* do what mom's wants.

[Aemeth]

Raum, that is really interesting about the in-the-air decision...Good post!

But it seems like you and A are both operating under the assumption that man has an ability to make a COMPLETELY free choice...Now, we may be able to make a choice free ENOUGH to give us responsibility regarding that choice and the consequences, but a COMPLETELY free choice?

Mom, Dad, Best Friends, Sega Genesis, I Love Lucy, James Bond and on and on and on....None of those had any influence on your decision...? AT ALL...?

Oh and one more thing Raum--the issue here isn't deciding what you want to do when you can't decide, but rather doing something with a coin flip just for the sake of doing it completely void of outside influence (sorry if that was unclear).

[Aemeth]

The only way its not free is if you're forced to, right..?

In this sense, no. I mean free in a more intellectual sense. Free from outside influence or genetic structure, etc.

[raum]

In a world bound by an universal analinear acasual connecting principle, of course there are "influences" - but to feel bound to those influences and restricted by them is YOUR CHOICE - and the unifying phenomenal principle, called the "butterfly effect" , by some, and the "Tapestry of Life" by others... as a whole can make you feel more free when you "view it from all sides"; i.e. If you realize that the you think you are is but a spark of a far greater fire. I don't mean you posit it to be true, or you want to think it... I mean if/when/should you EXPERIENCE it, if only but for a moment. You will be forever changed. There is a being that dips but a feather of it's wing into the pool of the waters below heaven - and the ripples from that disruption of the surface of that serene still pond is the illusion of mortal humanity.

So, I don't really look at "Being Free" - as much as I look at "Securing Liberty."

Free is a word misunderstood. Was Prometheus ever free until he was bound by the Olympians for defying them and bringing fire to Mankind, and is he not even more free now he is prepetually fed to his nemesis who daily picks his bones?

Free is a word truly misunderstood. "Will" even more so.