so called "Ground Zero Mosque" Park51

[raum]

a post from a different conversation. I am sure everyone has heard something about the topic. Would love to hear some views other than my own.


Islam is as flawed as any religion. The scary thing is people fight for the right for their B.S. Shariah laws. Where is the Pagan, the Buddhist, the Taoist, the Mystic? What happens to the People who are not People of the Book?

Sorry, but if you have no respect for people who are not Christian, Jew, Muslim... then how should we ever expect you can handle the REAL diversity of the religious experience. And when the Sunni and Shia can't war with each other - who will they war with?

As far as this building. If dude had the money let him do it. He wants to campaign worldwide to put that building up. WHO he becomes endebted to for those funds IS important REGARDLESS of where the building is. Would the location embolden some people, sure. So do half the things that embolden people worldwide THAT ARE NOT TRUE. The paradox is most of the real critics see people who are emboldened by a religion (they do not believe is true), and somehow think they will be more emboldened by a building that is.

But for me, I look more to what the evolving view of people REGARDLESS of religion is in Islam. Especially when most of the peacable Muslims I speak to actually talk about the ridding of the world of the people who are not of the book as a necessary evil. They consider the annhilation of humans who have views and beliefs not conforming to the 3 people of the book something they would not interfere with. HOW IS THAT ACCEPTABLE? My religion (as in my PERSONAL UN-CATALOGED relationship with the divine) DEMANDS my action to prevent such things as that.

But, just as Blacks have realized they need to take ownership of their crime against each other -so do muslims. (from 2007) some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims

You can say "Oh, but I am not a bad Muslim. FINE." Not every black who exists condones the "nicca gona hafta killa nicca dungivafuk" mentality that gets lots of good kids and men killed in confusion and resentment born in poverty and self-loathing greed. I am also not saying that blacks are more prone genetically to be violent or anything. The black on black crime is a phenomenon that has been engendered by a complex system of events and circumstances. The point is not about race. Those who speak out against it DO SO VOCALLY. They identify black, and disapprove and take ownership of their right/duty to do something. There are positive effects of this outreach. The point is you identify with the second largest demonstration of socially integrated murder on the planet. HOW can you validate this religion is of any value? In its teachings it offers NOTHING to people unless they profess a specific faith. Religion brings together people - ALL people to respect the expereince of being a person.

The minute I see a Muslim demonstration against the killing of Christians in Egypt, or the wholesale slaughter in Darfur, I will respect the religion's value ALOT more. The only Muslim I see vocally speaking out against Muslims persecuting other religions is the ex-Muslim that came to America to escape Islam.
I truly hope there are more who are vocal, especially about the fact that:

None of this interfaith pretension is ever really more than the Abrahamic Social Club. Which is STUPID as we know men simply lend a different form of genetic assistance to the fertilization of the ovum than was believed when all these people of the books believed little men came out of Abraham's pen0r. Jesus Z. christ, you would guess most people would figure out their "prophet" would go head-asplodey if they so much as saw Steamboat Willy.

[shining2001uk]

very controversial subject.
I would say that Muslims are very similar to most (but not all) religious groups, in that they comprise many different ethnic groups and individuals with different views. There are still Protestant and Catholic Chrisitans killing each other in Northern Ireland. There are Hindus in India that are still trying to eradicate Muslims.
All extremists or fundamentalists are as bad as each other whatever the religion, and in most religions are the minority. Most people dont want to kill or harm someone else in the name of their faith.

to the point of the building. i dont see a problem with a mosque at the site. The crazies happen to be Muslim and that is unfortunate but for the reasons above, they dont represent the people who will benefit or use the mosque. Mosques are like many churches, they encourgae care in the community.
Having said that, I would think that those planning the mosque would try to avoid confrontation like this and move it.

One thing I dont know is how many Muslims live in that area and how close is it to ground zero.

[raum]

See, here is where I take objection.

My main issue is why they chose the building they did; because the building was damaged by the landing gear of one of the planes They have been explicit that the part of the plane is the MAIN reason they chose that building. That to me is the greatest objection. If they even said "Allah is our inspiration" that would better; but to them, the inspiration came from the WRECKAGE! There is no real cause for a "community center" in that neighborhood, and that is the worst reason to open one there.

[AYHJA]

I think most of the thinking about this is cornered around fear and personal sentiment...

The best way to beat something, is to get within it, understand it, and be powerful enough to change it...I don't see why building it is such a bad idea, if there are some willing to get in and see what its all about...Monitor it, learn, and teach that which would most benefit the community...I saw this quote in an article on the subject, which I think sums it up nicely:

Journalist Fareed Zakaria, in an opinion piece titled, “Build The Ground Zero Mosque,” also pointed out that if the building of Park51 were prevented, we as a country would lose out on the opportunity to cultivate reformist Islam

[raum]

I don't think it is fear - I think it is ambiquity. This place tried to be controversial - from it's name (Which is attributed to the Islamic conquest of Christian Spain... to a place CHOSEN because of its proximity and its position of the wreckage landing gear of the plane weaponized against its own people.

They wanted attention. That is CLEAR. They just don't like the attention they got. I ALSO am not sure I like the idea of that being the planning strategy for something called a community center; "like the YMCA." The YMCA is a multibillion bollar charity. It has the largest public library in Gaza and holds breavement groups for Palestinian and Israeli families. It helps people worldwide and does alot of good.

It did not name itsself after a religiously motivated conquest when locals converted to religion to escape bloodshed. It did not choose a location based on its involvement in a disaster. I don't like these guy's motives... and not just because they are of a relgion - it is because, from pro-Islam and Possibly Anti-American sources they want funding to do SOMETHING in America that is religious specific, and seem to offer NO value to but to give kids a place to play downtown, have a Islamic childcare group (where the most impressionable years will be spent with a priority given to building trust and submission to a religion.) I don't trust them. Furthermore, I have spoken with Muslims who don't trust them either.

[raum]

Also, You don't have to anti-Muslims to be suspicious of groups or their motives.

When I think of things like this, I think back to my friend Sam, who worked in telesales. He volunteered for a group that was leading a telephone campaign for the selling of tickets for a rodea. The police sponsored it, hospitals, and firefighters association. He went in and was goiven a script, same script they all had - worked it 3 hours a day, three days a week after his regular job. It went like like this - they would cold call people whoi they bought lists of and try to sell the tix. they would say they had endorsements from local police, firefighters, churches and hospitals... The name of the group:

Christian Association for the Severely Handicapped. An inter-faith group - The founders name was "Chad Nathan Christian"." They had support from Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and many other groups. Barnes and Noble even donated books. When people tried to ask who to write the check to, the scripat offered the name could be abbreviated:

C.A.S.H.

Sam went to the office one, with a woman looking to donate a good bit of stuff like you would take to goodwill, causew a tenant moved out of a rent home and left it all. He went to the office and saw Chad Nathan Chrsitian and four other people making astack of the checks made out to C.A.S.H. and the checks made out to the full name of the group.

They were cashing the checks made out to "CASH" and using the rest to appear like they were trying to raise money. There were actually even doing good with it. and what they were skimming was not even that much.

He has introduced me to his supervisior once, I *felt* they were wrong somehow. That was one of the people in the office.

I don't know why, but despite any and all reasons, I don't trust this group. I tend to be right. You don't have to think a group are terrorists to think they are crooked.

[darklighter1]

LOL! C.A.S.H. That was awesome.