The calibur of the questions I personally have for Islam.

#1

(originally posted at that other forum, ieXbeta.com)

I am not being offensive; I am scrutinizing. It's what I do. I explore ALL written histories of God, and am reverant of the inner light of all, and critical to the negiennered claims that have created a world where no-one even knows what they are fighting for anymore, or why. Perhaps you felt this media veteran;s questions were out of line. I assure you mine are far more sensitive.

Like i said my questions (for Islam) would be far more detailed, such as:

QUESTION 1:

how can you dare to say the Quran only says to wage war or kill to defend your countries when it clearly says:

ix.29,30:"Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed but believe neither in God nor the Last Day, and who do not forbid that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who refuse to acknowledge the true religion [Islam] until they pay the poll-tax without reservation and are totally subjugated. "The Jews claim that Ezra is a son of God, and the Christians say, "the Messiah is a son of God. "Those are their claims which do indeed resemble the sayings of the Infidels of Old. May God do battle with them! How they are deluded!"

Um, care to answer how this is not a Muslim sentiment, when it is in the Holy Quran, the very guide to Islam?

If the Quran was "written all in one book from one source," why is it not heresy for Islamic scholars to say it was collected by Zayd (at the behest of Abu Bakr): from pieces of papyrus, flat stones, palm leaves, shoulder blades and ribs of animals, pieces of leather and wooden boards, as well as from the hearts of men?"

QUESTION 2:

Relying on hitherto neglected non-Muslim sources, brought to light by study of Greek texts, and current scholarship, it is possible to give a new account of the rise of Islam: an account, on their admission, unacceptable to any Muslim. The work is well cited and covered in "Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World" (1977). The main debate with Muslim tradition of their own origins is that Muslim sources used to explain this rise are too late, and unreliable, and therefore they are no cogent external grounds for accepting the Islamic tradition.

Therefore, what is the ground for authority of the religion, if not freedom of religion, which is completely heretical to the insistence that all infidels be slain?

Question 3:

With a Greek text (dated ca. 634-636) however, the core of the Prophet†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢s message appears as Judaic messianism, and its adherents are not even called Muslims. Liguistic anaylsis proves this text to be authentically the oldest possible mention of the people who would become the Muslims. There claim was to "Hagar", and thus they were The Mahgraye, and claim to be the descendants of Abraham by Hagar, hence the term "Hagarism." But there is another dimension to this term; for the corresponding Arabic term is muhajirun; the muhajirun are those who take part in a hijra, which is an exodus. "The †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬‚¹¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œMahgraye†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢ may thus be seen as Hagarene participants in a hijra to the Promised Land; in this word lies the earliest identity of the faith which was in the fullness of time to become Islam."

Question 4:

How can a religion which has a paternal Tie to a Jew JEWISH RELIGION? Why isn't the name of Abram's god, "yah", which becomes "Shaddai El Chai" after the mythical sparing of Isaac (which muslims hold was actual Ishmael, and to be honest, makes more sense that he would be commanded to kill his son born out of wedlock), venerated by those who seek to claim his lineage?

Question 5:

There is even evidence that the Jews themselves, far from being the enemies of Muslims at the time. They traditionally recounted, welcomed and interpreted the Arab conquest in messianic terms, and it was for this reason it was allowed to grow, criticized only in certain circles which far from typified the Religion. The evidence "of Judeo-Arab intimacy is complemented by indications of a combined marked hostility towards Christianity."

In fact, the Muslims soften to christianity before the Jews, for their common exaggerated theme of Messiach as a person, not a phenomenon.

Therefore, where did this hatred of Christianity originate if not in the conquering of peoples who had their own religious ties to their own cultures?

An Armenian chronicle written in the 660s also contradicts the traditional Muslim insistence that Mecca was the religious metropolis of the Arabs at the time of the conquest. This chronicle is of Muslim origin, by the way, and points out the Palestinian orientation of the movement, which reveals their Jewish orientation toward Jerusalem.

This also clarifies how the Prophet Muhammed emphasized Arab involvement in the enactment of Judaic messianism, in a manner consisting of a dual claim of the Abrahamic descent of the Arabs as Ishmaelites, to completely decieve them of their own bloodlines and to foster an allegience much like the christian adoption of Pagan holidays. This secured the opportunity of the Muslims to endow them with a birthright to the Holy Land as well as the lands they had just conquered... and also to provide them with a "monotheist genealogy," which is the basis of Patriarchal Oppression. Can we therefore see the Muslim hijra not as an exodus from Mecca to Medina (for no early source attests to the historicity of this event), but as an emigration of the so-called Ishmaelites (Arabs) from Arabia to the Promised Land to be integrated with the other descendants of Abraham, a process which was not well-recieved by the Jews, and is the origin of the Middle Eastern dispute that perpetuates even modern days? It certainly seems to start that way based on extanct records.

Question 3: (let's see if anyone notices this error in numbering... 8))

The origins of the Samaritans are as a rather obscure cult of Jews who choose to re-evaluate the importance and significance of the Messiach, and certainly indicates connection to the origins of Islam, and linguistic elements which are no where found in ancient Arabic. All we can really demise, they are Israelites of central Palestine, generally considered the descendants of those who were planted in Samaria by the Assyrian kings, in about 722 B.C.E. and they habitually refuted the claims of the King of Judah.

The faith of the Samaritans was Jewish monotheism, but they had shaken off the influence of the oppressive Judaism by developing their own religious identity, rather in the way the Arabs were to do later on. The Samaritan canon included only the Pentateuch, which was considered the sole source and standard for faith and conduct.

The formula "There is no God but the One (Achud)" is an ever-recurring refrain in Samaritan liturgies. A constant theme in their literature is the unity of God and His absolute holiness and righteousness. Do you immediately notice the similarity of the Muslim proclamation of faith: "There is no God but Allah?"

And, of course, the unity of God is a fundamental principle in Islam. The Muslim formula bismillah, i.e. "In the name of Allah" is found in Samaritan scripture as beshem "In the Name of The Name". The opening chapter of the Koran is known as the Fatiha, opening or gate, often considered as a succinct confession of faith. This word has origins in the phrase, v-atah, or "with Thou."

A traditional Samaritan prayer, can also be considered a confession of faith, begins with the words: Amadti kamekha al fatah rahmeka, "I stand before Thee at the gate of Thy mercy." Fatah is the Fatiha, opening or gate.

The sacred book of the Samaritans was the Pentateuch, which embodied the supreme revelation of the divine will, and was accordingly highly venerated. They joined the Psalms as the sole canon of the Samaritans. Muhammad also seems to only know the Pentateuch and Psalms only, and shows no knowledge of the prophetic or historical writings.

The Samaritans themselves held Moses in high regard, Moses being the prophet through whom the Law was revealed. In fact, it was they who gave him the origin of being assaulted by the angels on the mountain where he recieved the Torah. For the Samaritans, Mt. Gerizim was the rightful center for the worship of Elohim; and it was further associated with Adam, Seth, and Noah, and Abram†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢s sacrifice of Isaac. The expectation of a coming Messiah was also an article of faith to the Samaritans even before Messianic Judiasm became about a demigod rather than the phenomenon of Personal initiation. The name given to their Messiah, was "Mahadin," i.e. the Restorer. Here we can also notice the similarity of the Muslim notion of the Mahdi.

The Samaritans had rejected the sanctity of Jerusalem, and had replaced it by the older Israelite sanctuary of Shechem. When the early Muslims disengaged from Jerusalem, Shechem provided an appropriate model for the creation of a sanctuary of their own.

I, along with other scholars, would further argue that the town now known as Mecca in central Arabia (Hijaz) could not have been the center of the momentous events so beloved of Muslim tradition, an escape record. Or perhaps these are the rocords of the Muslims that were all of them destroyed by the King of Iraq, who declared Islam a pestilence. Despite the lack of any early non-Muslim references to Mecca in time times Muslims were know to exists by other writings, we also have the undeniable fact that the direction in which the early Muslims prayed (the qibla) was northwest Arabia. The evidence comes from the alignment of certain early mosques, and the literary evidence of Christian sources. Just as the very birthtime of Jesu can be disproven by the Celestial Alignment, so can the Testement of islam be tried by Time to reveal Truth.

In other words, it is evident that Mecca, as the Muslim sanctuary, was only chosen much later by the Muslims, in order to relocate their early history within Arabia, to complete their break with Judaism, engineer their origins as seperate from Jews, and formally establish their separate religious identity; just as the Jews did from the Canaanites.

So, how now will you take this set of scholarly questions forming a hypothesis complete in tune with the nature of humanity and the annuls of Time, and defend any claim to Islam as being else but reactionary Judiasm, and the Quran as sacrosanct, in a manner befitting intellectual debate, which was once prized among the original Islamic scholars?

I await your response, with regard and respect; with both eyes open and no head bent.

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end of transmission.

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#2

or, if they need a simpler set...

Quran-36:38: And the sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. Quran-36:39: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm leaf. Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Um, according to the literal translation of the Quran, as set forth here... Allah, through Gabriel says the sun orbits around the Earth, along with the Moon. GOD LIED ABOUT THE SOLAR SYSTEM TO THE RELIGION OF TRUTH???

In Astonmy, it is accepted that the sun takes 225 millions of years to make just one complete circle through the solar Universe. And obviously this movement of sun has nothing to do with DAY & NIGHT of the earth. Actually, Sun is stationary for the earth in real sense, because earth is stuck to the giant gravitation force of sun and earth also move along with sun wherever it goes, just the way we are stuck to earth†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢s gravitation force and do not feel earth†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢s movement at all.

Quran-31:10: He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬…¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¦..

Did Allah not get the Memo that Turkey is one of his, and they are still getting their asses handed to them by "quakes"?

Did Allah not know that the the mountains he cast into the earth are the forumlation of tectonic plates that by shifting are te very NATURE of an earthquake?

It seems to me that Allah's word is limited to the Post-Hellenic understanding of biology, geography, and astronomy.

Or one of Lineage: How could Hagar, a Egyptian woman, and Abram, a Hebrew man, begat a Arab son? I will pay a gillion sticks of fruit stripe gum to the person who can explain this biologically. It can't be,.. therefore, the claim to Ishmael's lineage is questionable, or completely falsified to appease a converted people who were looking for their own sigificance in the religion that had overtaken their own customs.

My Sufi teacher would take this questions and not even flinch. He would admit the engineered history of the religion that he found solace in... and still maintain it was his way to learning the Truth, He (as of two years ago, when last I spoke to him) had the wisdom to give credit where credit is due and admit the falsity of a presumptuous mankind which seeks the manifestation fo the absolute, even if it was uncomfortable to the religion of his youth. He usually does so with a slight smile and a look of sympathy.

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#3

Inquiring minds want to know... I'm very interested in seeing the response to these questions as I followed the reaction to the others posed in the earlier thread.

#4

see, deep;

this is when the silence starts - when you bring out the facts. Such is the dilemna of our age that debate is taken as offense, and there is this collective idea that "freedom and right of religion" means you have liscense to believe whatever silly shit you are fed cause you can't bother to check and balance it, and APPLY it to the betterment of your life, and dealings with all humanity.

The Truth is there,.. a piece here and a piece there - spread out among EVERY culture that has offered its findings in written word,.. though it is not always easy to find or readily available. God would not reserve the truth for any other thatn those who demonstrate a love and passion for all cultures, countries, religions... essentially a person who has crush hate in the embrace of love, and cleaves to God in all things, even if its having a beer with cha girl (shout @ pete).

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#5

I agree with you totally. I was raised Southern Baptist from the cradle and went on to become an ordained Southern Baptist minister (Chaplain). Throughout my seminary studies, it became increasingly clear to me that while Christianity has just a portion of the "TRUTH". As I did comparative religion studies, I saw many of the things you've said in this and other threads, that all of the major religions share many of the same "stories" or "myths". Also many of them share similar, if not identical "values" which are expressed in only slightly different ways. I came to the conclusion (and a not very SBC one at that) that while each one says it's "The One True Religion" I don't really believe that. I'm not going to go into a detailed discourse as that was years ago, and most of my notes and texts are long gone. Organized religion no longer has any hold on me nor do I have any interest in it. I have my personal relationship with the Power and follow my own personal moral code.

#6

I just love it when people get all huffy about shit like that, and then when they are smoted, they say, "Well you....." When you take their own shit and ask them to defend it, they spit out their pacifier and start crying...I am tempted to go to ieX and laugh, but I am probably close to being banned there anyways, LoL...

#7

the only Muslim I personally have respect for heard my debates and questions, shrugged, and said "ya, know Sufi can drink, right? I need a beer to let this sink in."

A few days later, he said (something like)

.. well, you didn't let me know anything I didn't know,.. but the way the argument is structured includes things i did not consider. What you said illustrates that essentially the warmongering people on this planet are all connected...to the denial of their own canaanite roots,.. which are the roots of all writing in the world though we can't prove it (UPDATE: evidence found and it is now being grudginly accepted). This is something that sufi did not read in the Quran, insetead he realized it when he was using chinese suni ink to to write sura removed from the Quran on the backs of Persian whores passed out one Lebonese beds of cedar while waiting to pass out and dream of conversations with Moses and Jesus.

I have profound respect for a man who says his religious sunrise prayer is a sign God wants him to party till daybreak, and says it without flinching.. and he can be up for work by midday.

I just thought that man got religion on lock! Assalaamu 'alaykum to that day when all the Big Three get in THAT gear.

Thus began my actual tutelage with a Naqshbandi Majujun, rooted in the origin that Islam tries to hide and pronounce as heresey. A history that was once the property of the Templars... and still echoes through their halls.