ADN

Very interesting response Raum. I'll have to ponder that for a bit. He is a Lutheran professor btw...

actually, I suspected that...

My Chaplain in the Navy was a Lutheran. From what I learned of him, they have a sound foundation on inclusion in the doctrine of Love, as opposed to seeing the Law of God as a means of trying to escape damnation.

So what do you think about the Lutheran doctrine then?

I have some conflicts with it, mainly the whole "faith, not works" idea.

I simply think Pistos is poorly translated as faith. I think it is best translated "conviction", or more of Luther's time, "profession", and that it is evident in one's works, in as much as humans are capable of being so consistent.

I believe the idea of "faith, not works" had to do with people adopting elements of Judiasm, which Paul sincerely had issue with.

but futhermore, I challenge most people who hold to a rigid doctrine, and yet their tongue slips loose when they speak of their lord by name. Perhaps most compelling in this assertion were some baptists who informed me, Jesus hates his Jewish name cause he was killed by Jews, and wants to be called "G-zuhz". In their company I nodded politely, begged to differ, and never went back to *that* church.

i do not think it is their "Baptist" i feared as much as their "ignorance."

As far as the idea of "One Church" - that is particular to a specific rendering of the concept of a church.

In as much as the church is the Bride of Christ, i can see that, it is the entirety of the body of those that love Christ.

but to them, i do say... God does not cut off the finger for it is not the hand.

I think the whole faith and not works idea fits perfectly with the topic of predestination. If you believe that we get to choose whether or not we go to Heaven, then you believe in faith by works. It is a action or a work that would decide Heaven. If it's salvation by faith, then it's God that does the choosing.

Most Chrisitians believe in salvation by faith but believe that we choose our own Eternity and you can't have it both ways

To me, discussions of "faith" in a modern context are useless. Faith in the context used by early christians is synonmous with "duty, responsibility", not "belief, hope." That is one of the sincere reasons I simply cannot abide by the "Faith, not works" doctrine. if my Doctrine had a creed in English, perhaps it would be "Thy will be done, by my hands and thy Grace."

Most modernist Christians I meet have at least one serious defunct part of their logic that is something no reasonable person can believe and retain their intellectual dignity ~ and invariably this "belief" is something neither required nor original to their religion.

for example, when people "have faith" that man and dinosaur were created on the same day. (WTF!?!?!?)

Did those people watch Flintstones before church and dream through service? Cause never once did I see

יאבבא דאבבא דו

in the Old Testement (and yes, that is Yabba Dabba Doo! in Hebrew.)