ADN

Actually it is very simple to prove that God exists logically. I'll do it right here in just a couple lines

Atoms exist, and atoms do not exist
Therefore, God exists.


Want proof? Here it is.

A: Atoms exist
B: God exists


1. A . ~A :. B
2. A 1, Simplification
3. ~A 1, Simplification
4. A v B 2, Addition
5. B 3, 4, Disjunctive Syllogism


Trust me. That is a valid argument there

umm.....

Thats way over my head

[quote]but proof of gods existence is achieved by experience.... not words. [/quote]

There's no proof of it, there's conjecture, based solely on folklore and subjective impressions, colored by teachings.

[quote]I guess you¢¢¬¢ž¢re trying to say some one told me about him so thats why I believe. Well of course if you got rid of every trace of written or memorized religion we would be left wondering. I think man has always had a belief that some thing existed more powerful than himself .Whether your comfortable with that or not its been a part of who we are since cave man times. [/quote]

The reasons why man thought there was "something more powerful" yesterday have consistently been replaced by a serious commitment to understanding how our world REALLY works. This is more about stubborness and convenience than evidence of its eternal presence. Am I comfortable with that? I assure you, not as comfortable as most are clinging to outdated concepts, even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[quote]You want me to explain christian belief without talking about christian belief ? Do you understand that each religion has its own interpretation of god [/quote]

No, I'd prefer you explain such contradictions over a universal being. I will grant you that my question was very poorly formulated. I guess it was short sighted, since it was aimed solely to a christian.

[quote]Only through reading the bible do you become aware of how he sees things and thats when you start to understand the deference.[/quote]

No, I became aware of how man sees things and how easily we find meaning and cling to it, even after "the word of god" has been proven to be the word of many, for basically the same purpose...to find an unquestionable leader who curiously is ALWAYS 100% behind the guy holding his book. VERY human, if you ask me.

[quote]Beyond that. from a christian view his moody ass become a beacon of peace and universal love when his son showed up and started a new relationship. [/quote]

Which again, renders the presence of even older versions of his "son" useless. Many before him, and each given the same license. Maybe not the same title, but that's nothing more than a formality.

[quote]Is there deference between asking for help in how to feed your family verses asking for a bottle of booze. I see a diffeance between want and need.[/quote]

I mostly got what I wanted, can't say I got what I needed, but i'm sure we can chalk it up to "father knows best", and only he knows what I really need.

[quote]God give me strength to deal with this
God help me understand
God show me your will in this area of my life
God help me know how to help
God help me know what to say to ease this persons pain[/quote]

I'm sorry, all I'm reading there is "trust thyself", so yeah, I agree.

[quote]I think you got it in your head at some point that gods purpose was to grant wishes and physically save lives.[/quote]

Oh he granted wishes, he just wasn't good for much else. Kinda like Santa Claus, which got old real quick.

[quote]I believe God created the laws that govern how the universe works .The earth is what it is and does what it does He gives us guidance not the earth. You have to believe he sent the tidal wave to think there was a message.
[/quote]

No, I think what I'm talking about is how fucking useless it is to put your life in his hands when "nature calls". I think I've made it clear I don't believe there IS a message, except "build high, use common sense".

[quote]God doesnt give you a project that needs to be completed in order to be accepted by him.. Its not about getting to the end of the road its about being on the road. At the very least its about becoming familiar with gods path and becoming familiar with him To have worked with god and let him mold you in some way. Knowing him is whats important[/quote]

But it IS about getting to the end of the road, in the right lane!, you're telling me being in god's path has nothing to do with any sort of purpose? AND you get to keep living?
I gotta say that sounds as apathetic as anything I've ever heard or read. This whole time I though the difference between going to heaven or ending up in hell WAS a purpose, THE purpose. What you said sounds like once you get in the club, you just cruise by, maybe go to a few meetings, pat coworkers on the back and of course, getting to know the boss. No real job description, though, just make sure he's happy. A dead end job, in other words.


As for your last post, the issue is not whether you BELIEVE love is "just" chemicals. The observations and research are there. you don't have to believe, pretty refreshing.

[quote]what i was getting at was can you experience love without some one else ?[/quote]

"Love thyself", and with noone else around...and no concept of "sin".
Let's be realistic, though...at some point, our hypothetical person will wonder who gave him/her the shot of happy juice, with no one around physically...he/she might get to wondering "who made me this happy". Are we going to be so cruel and see how far we can take this?

QUOTE(trashtalkr @ Nov 2 2006, 01:17 AM) Want proof? Here it is.

A: Atoms exist
B: God exists
1. A . ~A :. B
2. A 1, Simplification
3. ~A 1, Simplification
4. A v B 2, Addition
5. B 3, 4, Disjunctive Syllogism
Trust me. That is a valid argument there
Sorry, I'm not buying that. By the same logic:

A: Atoms exist
B: Bigfoot exists


1. A . ~A :. B
2. A 1, Simplification
3. ~A 1, Simplification
4. A v B 2, Addition
5. B 3, 4, Disjunctive Syllogism


Trust me. That is a valid argument there

for once trash did something clever and this highlander screws it with silly explanations.

PS: I dont believe in atoms.

God hasnt enough time to create those little fucks

.me¢¢¬‚¦what I was getting at was can you experience love without some one else

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦."Love thyself", and with no one else around...and no concept of "sin".
Let's be realistic, though...at some point, our hypothetical person will wonder who gave him/her the shot of happy juice, with no one around physically...he/she might get to wondering "who made me this happy¢¢¬‚ Are we going to be so cruel and see how far we can take this?

.me.. The guy figuring out he got injected and saying love = sex wraps this up for me

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦The reasons why man thought there was "something more powerful" yesterday have consistently been replaced by a serious commitment to understanding how our world REALLY works. This is more about stubbornness and convenience than evidence of its eternal presence. Am I comfortable with that? I assure you, not as comfortable as most are clinging to outdated concepts, even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

,me¢¢¬‚¦Sounds like no one who is religious believes in science or that no scientists believes in god. Unless you¢¢¬¢ž¢re trying to say you have proof god doesn¢¢¬¢ž¢t exist? This is getting old .

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦Which again, renders the presence of even older versions of his "son" useless. Many before him, and each given the same license. Maybe not the same title, but that's nothing more than a formality.

.me¢¢¬‚¦..Christains believe there has always been a relationship with god. It started with Adam and made itself more clear with Abraham...created a formal path for all with Moses...and made up for our weakness of sin and provided direct acceptance by Jesus. The relationship has evolved but the former is not rendered obsolete. It all depends on each other. That¢¢¬¢ž¢s why its all part the bible.

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦No, I think what I'm talking about is how fucking useless it is to put your life in his hands when "nature calls"..
.me... Again ...God doesn¢¢¬¢ž¢t promise physical protection

God give me strength to deal with this
God help me understand
God show me your will in this area of my life
God help me know how to help
God help me know what to say to ease this persons pain

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦I'm sorry, all I'm reading there is "trust thyself", so yeah, I agree.
.me¢¢¬‚¦.What a world it would be if we all knew the right answers to all of our problems.

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦This whole time I thought the difference between going to heaven or ending up in hell WAS a purpose, THE purpose.
..me¢¢¬‚¦..THE purpose...no

.x3n¢¢¬‚¦. you're telling me being in god's path has nothing to do with any sort of purpose?

..me... You didn¢¢¬¢ž¢t ask me if my life was filled with purpose. You asked me....." So I'm wondering, what will your reasoning be when it turns out it's YOUR ass to bite it and you pray to god. Do you feel confident you've ( fulfilled ) your life's purpose? ".... Than you attached this accomplishment to being accepted by god. as if there was some sort of goal line. Two different things.. If you let yourself be molded by god ...how you deal with your life and the world will change. Than you reflect his love back to him and the rest of the world which can be done in millions of ways big and small and is an on going never ending in the moment kind of thing.

TT, was that just a pathetic joke pointing out that an argument can be valid but not true (if it isn't sound)? Please say no....lol

That is an example of a valid argument. The soundness of it all depends on your point of view. I started with a contradiction, and so if something can be true and false at the same time, then that works

that was great TT, unfortunately you had to explained it