ADN

QUOTE(Brains @ Jan 12 2007, 03:04 PM) tell me what?!

that indeed the attack is outrageous and that we should all condemn it. you are damn straight we should.

No, that just because this one attack happened in Greece, it may not have anything to do with any of America's impact anywhere else. It just may be that not every attack on the US or its interests is a commentary on the war in Iraq. There has been a communist push in Greece for a decade, and it has ony gotten worse.

QUOTEthere is a lot we should condemn. And we have. Iraq is one. Never before did the world experience such massive protest against it before it started... how many millions were on the street worldwide?! Did the US listen?! No it did not. That is deplorable as well.

"The world" protested the US going to Iraq? You mean "people who condemn war protested around the world." More countries officially expressed "neutrality" than condemnation or support. The UN condemned Saddam in the courts of Iraq. Hell, even Iran was happy we were going after Saddam.

Meanwhile, every damn Tom, Dick, and Habib in the UN is trying to punctuate how they helped bring Saddam to Justice, to try and get on the lunch wagon. Our losses were great but so is our cause, because we made sure that the greatest possible care could be given to the non-violent citizenry of Iraq. More Iraqi citizens have died from attacks by insurgents than by any other reason since we entered. Personally, you might notice recruiment is up across every income range, and the biggest reason is the nobility of the cause, and the hope that a direct confrontation in the Middle East is a key to the endurance of peace. Because, franky, inaction didn't work, either.

QUOTEVoice of The People?! That attack in Greece? Not really. Voice of Extreme Individuals in Greece, yes.

Do I support that attack?! Of friggen course I do not. Am I surprised by it? Well, yes and no. Yes, because it is in Greece. No, because "some people are fed up with the US... everywhere".

Ok, see here is where you don't get it. You are validating, if not approving, an attack there in Athens because people are fed up with the US... everywhere." You have no idea what instigated this attack, yet even now you shrug it off. I never shrug off an RPG attack on a nonmilitary building.

But, if being "fed up" is a case for an attack, I tell you, the world has more to worry about than RPG's.

QUOTELook guys... I - and a lot of others - have been telling you for years now: your international policy stinks and is upsetting people. Do you guys listen?! No.

Actually, yes. I do. But, you know what? Your international policies stink, too. The UN is to blame. Not the people who are forced into the biggest parts of that ill-planned design. See, we *THE US*, were the people who kept all of you from speaking Russian, after we kept you from speaking German. After realizing they couldn't win, The Russians spread weapons to anyone who would take them, and went bankrupt arming the world. In a moment of bad judgement, we did the same, opting to use indigenous forces. That is something we have moderated ever since, as best as we can. Problem is, it forces our troops abroad where they just don't have the same culture as the locals. But, if you want to blame the cold war for arming the world with weapons it has no respect for which forces the US to plant boots on almost every piece of inhabited land in any country, fine. Just don't blame us when you look at which of your borders we have secured by being there.

QUOTEYou had that coming. You WILL still have that coming. Do I encourage that? No I do not. But we both know there ARE persons doing this kind of shit!

Stop right there. If you must say something; say anything but "You had that coming." that is really really sounding far worse than you intend. The US did NOTHING to perpetrate that attack on our EMBASSY. Everytime people who want to preach peace say "you had that coming", why is it about an attack on an EMBASSY? The EMBASSY did nothing. I hate to say it, but all you peaceniks seem to think Embassies are viable targets. which just shows you have even less of an idea of what the US international policy is, or how it is implemented. Which is why it is increasingly hard to listen to your criticisms.

QUOTEraum: about the choice of words. There is a world of difference between a bad translation and an actual statement in a language we both know or do you accept "where mistakes have been made", as an honest excuse? I do not. Bush SHOULD say "the US has made the mistake of invading Iraq against the will of the majority of other countries. It now needs to admit its stupid mistake and calls on the world for help resolving it. We are willing to talk to whomever and work out the differences... and yadda yadda yadda." That would be a new strategy!!!! Not sending more troops... again... yawn! That does not work!

Bush does not believe it was a mistake to go to Iraq. Many of us don't believe that, even if we knew it would be at a terrible price. But, he does believe some mistakes were made in the approach taken. I concur. The biggest mistake is not enforcing Martial Law and getting rid of the insurgents from the ground up. We thought if we didn't squeeze the people too hard, the going would be easier. The problem is the passive philosophy of people who have a "god willing" attitude built around stifling morale, that they rarely back up.

Rarely can a poor person become rich unless they can SEE the possiblity of becoming rich. The same goes with freedom and Democracy.

"God willing, the terrorist do not come back." Screw that, secure your ground and challenge and suppress all who approach it. We are spreading out our troops, and claiming and KEEPING every friggin bit of vantage ground we secure. Because we advancing past our progress and then sectarian militias were claiming it as their own because the Iraqi forces couldn't hold it. The biggest obstacle to the damn war, is not trying to kill the terrorists, it is trying to win while the different sects of islam try to kill each other, and the Iraqi forces try to mae do with 5 weeks of training, after decades of submission.

If you think you know what is going on in Iraq, you are mistaken. The economy in Iraq is booming, on Jan 8th 400 of 600 Iraqi men from Ramadi went to training to become soldiers and policemen.

And as of yesterday, the indigenous Iraqi Reaction forces finally finished securing all five miles of "Route Irish" which was one of the worst IED laden roads in Baghdad, and leads from the US HQ to the airport.

That is *their* first major military operational success, and they should be proud.

QUOTE("Brains")You had that coming.

That's one helluva International policy right there Brains...People do fucked up shit, and have 'that' coming to them...Is that right..? I mean, it is what you said, so I guess that's what you mean...People do things that are wrong, and they have 'that' coming to them...

Ironic you feel that way, isn't it....How about us Americans take shit for being the ones to give it to them...Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh..?

Did Sadaam and co. 'have it coming' when they were doing shit like this website highlights..?

http://tinyurl.com/c636g

A Quote from the video...

"During three decades of Sadam Hussein's totalitarian rule, between 3 and 4 million of Iraq's 24 million people fled the country...Another estimated 1 million fell victim to state terror in the form of massacre, executions, torture, disappearances, and imprisonment...260 mass graves have been discovered so far...They contain an estimated 400,000 bodes...."

How do you say, "Had it coming," in Dutch..?

Speaking of international policy and your undying love for negotiations, how would you feel if good ole Guy Verhofstadt rolled up and tortured or worse 15% of your friends and family..? Lets read an actual plan that you would come up with to end 30 years of that kind of rule..?

you know the saying "what goes around, comes around", don't you?!

you know the saying "an eye for an eye..."?!

I can live with the first one, since it seems to be a law of nature. I do not adher to the second one. some do... you know that.

I think it is awfully confusing that you are trying to read into my posts that I support this shit (the RPG into the embassy). I DO NOT! ... Yet I also do not support the US's international policy. I only said "some people are fed up". How does that makes me the bad guy?! It's just realism ffs!

again - while I am not backing these, while I AM condemning that approach - which target can somebody who is fed up with the States attack? An aircraft carrier?! A battalion of troopers?! A tank?!? Which IS a valid target then to make your point come accross using that stupid approach called aggression?!

But... back to my first reply and to some of raum's comments... there was a mention of communism. The earlier attack back in 1996 seem to more point out that direction. And the whole chatter about Iraq might very well be completely off-topic.

raum. what do you mean with that "inaction did not work either"?!

and lastly: aj. you asked me something about our prime minister. if that would happen we would have years to think an answer through - I would certainly take some of them.

All I'm saying B, is this...

How can you look at one situation as 'what goes around comes around', while another situation is much, much worse...

The dilemma, is that everyone agrees that Sadaam's rule of the Iraqi people was horrible...Some of the most disturbing shit I've ever seen, men pushing other men off of rooftops...

So, we go into the area, remove a madman...And our international policy stinks...

Meanwhile, someone launches and RPG into an American Embassy, your first words are not, 'what a dispicable act' or something similar...

My POV in these matters is always as simplistic as possible...Simple questions with simple answers...

1. Would you have wanted to live in Iraq during Sadaam's rule..? Why or why not..?

And then tell me again, what the issue is with Sadaam getting murked, and just so happens that the U.S. did it..?

it depends a bit on who you ask, but there seems to be some sort of consensus as well that the situation in Iraq is far from better than when Saddam was in charge.

the shit Saddam did was in the 80'ies and while that does not justify them still, I fail to see the urgency with which Saddam all of a sudden had to be removed. A LOT of the world failed to see that. The inspections WERE working. There were NO WMD. NO link to Al Quaeda, NO clear and present danger. NO need to remove him using that approach. You were warned that going in the area could very well go against you. There were analysis describing that the region could blow up with Saddam removed and yet the US unilaterally decided that it was time to go in. The UN was not backing you, hence the "illegal war" concept. So, YES, that international policy stinks! BIG TIME!

Your question...

Saddam had a stable country. It had schools, freedom of religion, hospitals, water, gas, cars, shops, bars etc. You were free to walk where you wanted. You did NOT have the danger of being blown up when going to the market. You were able to chat about whatever. Things you did not have were being able to broadcast opinions going against Saddam's rule, in newspapers, television, books, etc. During the 90'ies Saddam did not execute as many as he did during the 70'ies and 80'ies. Would I want to live there?! Myeh, if I were an Iraqi, I guess I would.

I do not understand your last question.

I really don't know what to say, but what I do know is that yes, you may be smart and you may be intelligent but BRAINS you are not sir..... What we have done in Iraq is, was and will always be a necassary evil. Now I dont agree with the majority of what comes out of the bush administration and yes his motives were wrong but at the same time it was needed. I mean have we forgotten about his sons who were just as bad as him or worse and you were right mr. hussein did calm down over the years but his sons took the helm were he left off.

you remind me of one of those hippy protesters that sit outside walter reed and protest against the war but have never lifted a weapon to defend this country.

But my question is what have you done besides pay taxes and vote?
When have you put your life on the line for the greater good of humanity?

Brains, while you think you may have been safe under Saddam, think about the millions who he decided to murder. Do you think they felt safe? Try living in a nation where you have no say about what happens, how would you like that?

Just because this attack at the embassy was wrong and done by some terrorists, doesn't mean that people are fed up with America. I'm sure there are some terrorists who are just tired of waiting around for something bigger and hit some small stuff. This attack could be totally unrelated to our foreign policy, Iraq, or whatever shit you say it was related to

I don't know why you guys even bother with Brains anymore. He's proven time and again that he's nothing more than a political hack, not to mention anti-American. He can deny it all he likes, but it's the truth.

Rarely will he discuss an issue logically, and he constantly makes the most ridiculous statements, such as: "What goes around comes around." It must be nice to be able to simplify something as complex as the embassy bombing with "They had it coming."

I just read his posts and laugh.