If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

A school of music that studies the rhythm of nature, a school of fashion that studies the elegance of the Universe, a school of design that studies the architecture of the ancients, a school of philosophy that studies the time-tested Truth.
Brains
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:14 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#11

Post by Brains »

raum wrote:Brains: As always, thank you for your counterpoint. I truly enjoy our interchange.

Here is in short my proposal, simplified. Look and see how easy it makes sense.

I choose to FIRST address crime because crime is the child of poverty.
that is already where you loose me. you say crime is the child of poverty. or that poverty (might) result in crime.

so, say that one is not able to fullfill the most basic of physiological needs because of a lack of funds and commits a crime to get these, you'd punish them?

they are unfortunate to be so poor as not to be able to buy food and you'd ban them for trying to do so?!

please don't let me be part of your world m8ey!

how can you sensibly say that you'd prefer cutting the branches of a sick plant, instead of dealing with its sickness?!


anyhows. I proposed a 4-bulleted method. no comments yet. bring 'm on! :soldier:

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
User avatar
AYHJA
392
Posts: 37990
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:25 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.
Contact:

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#12

Post by AYHJA »

I'm not sure that I agree with the general premise that crime is the son of poverty...I think for a majority of people, that may in fact be a driving factor...But there are some of us that grow up poor and don't resort to crime...There is something extra or missing in the mind of the criminal...So, that's another story...

As is too, the idea that there are any ways or plans to eliminate poverty...The one way I can think of, is money...Build up and invest in shitty places, aka, tear down Cabrini Green...You can take the boy out the hood, but not the hood out the boy...For those that which that motto applies, give them training and jobs to build these neighborhoods...You are less likely to spray paint something you spent 6 months to build...Not only will they gain a trade and instill some pride, they now have a good job doing the same thing in other places that will allow them to pay the new premiums that it costs to live in the revitalized neighborhoods...

The poor get richer and the richer get richer, but as raum said, we're paying 47K per year to keep them in prison, give them 40K in salary and benefits and show them how to be good citizens, which is much more important than focusing on their bottom line anyway...
ImageImage
Image Image

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
Aemeth
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:37 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#13

Post by Aemeth »

Ok...

There are several ways to go about this:

1) Pursue a flatter world. Globalization. This is happening more and more every day, yet it is not where it needs to be. I honestly feel that an economically flat (equal) world cannon coexist with poverty, at least in a life-threatening AND UNAVOIDABLE sense. There will always be people poorer than others, but with a flat world they at least have an opportunity to escape poverty.

1a) Micro loans. Economically jumpstarting will help a lot of third-world businesses strive, businesses that could not even exist without some start up cash. This is kind of the recent trend in the world of Poverty Bashing, and I think it is a very sound method...Give a man a fish...(you know the rest)

1b) Encourage capitalistic principles. Most economies in the world that are struggling are not doing so because of a lack of land, labor or capital. They are suffering because of a government that does not allow growth. Starting a business in Hong Kong can take 24 hours; in some countries it can take over 2 years. Hong Kong is tearing up the economic world. This model needs to be demonstrated in the under-developed world.

2) (similar to Raum's idea...) Remove the prison system. Instead of having prisoners, we could have social movers, peace corps volunteers, homeless shelter managers, and more. Plus, the ridiculous amounts of money could be used to provide funds for micro loans. I will not expand on this any more, as I think Raum covered a lot...

3) Outsource more. Yes, this is not great for the US, but due to the ridiculously low (in our eyes) wages offered to foreign workers, a lot more jobs could be provided for the extremely poor. At least they could live a sustainable life (which beats the alternative). Say what you want about low wages, but you should ask a family who lives off those wages if they are really that bad before you condemn them. Maybe some litigation could get passed to require big corporations to locate factories in the poorest of the poor areas. This is just one idea; more outsourcing opens up a lot of possibilities...

So those are a few of my ideas...Thoughts?

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
User avatar
raum
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:51 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#14

Post by raum »

Brains wrote: 1. insanely tax riches (both persons and companies)
2. provide a very well funded safety net for poors, so that they can quit working-just-to-piece-the-ends-together and start working to save money and buy their own houses
3. outlaw lobbying
4. outlaw being able to get elected if you have interests in business: sit on a board, have a high position in private companies, have had your complete carreer in business, even - have too many business friends would lead to your non-election in politics, see (3). a separation between politics and business, like we (should) have between church and politics.

that would be some initial things popping into me' brains.
1. BUST - If you insanely tax the rich, you defeat the purpose of having people strive to success. There is no benefit to having higher taxes that normalize your income to some social comfort zone. Raising taxes does not help defeat poverty, especially in America. We prove it time and time again.

2. A well funded safety net for poverty, huh? Do all your suggestions include money? Some actually SAVE money over time: http://www.isles.org/

Isles is a non-profit I help out with on behalf of my company. They take kids (15-24) who are by demographic and testing headed to jail. They give them a 2 year accelerated education, and construction skills. They teach them them how to refurbish the house they will one day have the chance to buy from the organization. They teach them to be financially responsible, and give them solid community contact for good job references, healthy neighborhoods, and strong feelings of togetherness. This is crucial to Trenton's revival.

In Trenton, there was a huge population of factory workers, who raised their kids to drop out and get a job at the plant. The plants are closed, and the career guidance they got from their parents and grandparents is useless. They are doing the best they can to get Trenton back to being a place people can live safely and enjoy success.

It costs 18,000 per year for a kid to go Isles. If he sticks with the program (which is pretty tough for some of them), total cost of everything, including his wages, which are given to him in allotments he helps decide on, his two years cost the organization about 40,000 dollars. That is 80,000 dollars we pay to get the kid on a path that in the end doesn't cost 24783 dollars a year. If he ends up in prison for five years, we save. And if he goes to prison for five years, he is not going to have much of a chance to ever get out and get clean. Could you imagine what it would like to enjoy this kind of program throughout the country? The prison industry would collapse. Then, people would have jobs, ideas for their own business, guidance on how to succeed, and willingness to work hard for good work. I would say there are at least 3 Million people in jail right now, who would do this easy, and make it through. We would save over 74 billion dollars in prison costs in 5 years with 3 million participants, and if those 3 million are left in prison for 5 years, they have a big chance of staying longer or returning.

And the effect would be felt generational. Most of those kids in prison, would have their sons end up in prison, etc. Most of the people through isles raise families in their OWN community, and their kids grow up to be achievers, going to college instead of prison.

They have a 340% higher sucess rehabilitation rate than the local prison system. In fact many of the heads of departments are "graduates" of the system. IT WORKS!

3. I agree there should be stricter regulation on lobbying, but you can't really outlaw lobbying. It's actually what our own elected officials are doing for us. By allowing people to Incorporate, you have to allow them due representation for the Entity that their common will composes. I would state something like a limit, and a requirement that for every dollar you lobby, you have to provide proof you did 35 cents of charitible contributions, and a nickel's worth of contributions to the economic improvement of an allied nation. 60:40 sounds about right.

4. That is a step back, in my opinion. You need proven businesspersons to effectively maintain the global economy. Having the notion of a seperated politician is just not a good one. ask North Korea, china, or any empire.

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
Brains
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:14 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#15

Post by Brains »

all of that already sounds better than your "fight crime to reduce poverty" scheme. :|
raum wrote:1. BUST - If you insanely tax the rich, you defeat the purpose of having people strive to success. There is no benefit to having higher taxes that normalize your income to some social comfort zone. Raising taxes does not help defeat poverty, especially in America. We prove it time and time again.
strange thing is that actually - no, it does not reduce the rich to some social comfort zone. you'd still be rich compared to the poor.

say you earn a million a year and are taxed 90%, you'd still have 100k left, which is by all means, quite comfortable.
if you'd earn 50k a year, you are taxed 20%, you'd have 40k left, which is 60% less than the rich dude.
if you'd earn 10K a year, you are taxed 0%, you'd have 10k, which still is 90% less than the rich dude and 75% less than the average joe.

it would level out prices for expensive goods to some extent and it would continue to fuel entrepreneurship - since getting richer still would pay off.

it would take away envy in a way, as a rich guy will not be looked down on by the poor one, since he would be indirectly aiding the poor one.

what do you mean with "raising taxes does not help defeat poverty, especially in america. We prove it time and time again."?

2. A well funded safety net for poverty, huh? Do all your suggestions include money? Some actually SAVE money over time: http://www.isles.org/

Isles is a non-profit I help out with on behalf of my company. They take kids (15-24) who are by demographic and testing headed to jail. They give them a 2 year accelerated education, and construction skills. They teach them them how to refurbish the house they will one day have the chance to buy from the organization. They teach them to be financially responsible, and give them solid community contact for good job references, healthy neighborhoods, and strong feelings of togetherness. This is crucial to Trenton's revival.

In Trenton, there was a huge population of factory workers, who raised their kids to drop out and get a job at the plant. The plants are closed, and the career guidance they got from their parents and grandparents is useless. They are doing the best they can to get Trenton back to being a place people can live safely and enjoy success.

It costs 18,000 per year for a kid to go Isles. If he sticks with the program (which is pretty tough for some of them), total cost of everything, including his wages, which are given to him in allotments he helps decide on, his two years cost the organization about 40,000 dollars. That is 80,000 dollars we pay to get the kid on a path that in the end doesn't cost 24783 dollars a year. If he ends up in prison for five years, we save. And if he goes to prison for five years, he is not going to have much of a chance to ever get out and get clean. Could you imagine what it would like to enjoy this kind of program throughout the country? The prison industry would collapse. Then, people would have jobs, ideas for their own business, guidance on how to succeed, and willingness to work hard for good work. I would say there are at least 3 Million people in jail right now, who would do this easy, and make it through. We would save over 74 billion dollars in prison costs in 5 years with 3 million participants, and if those 3 million are left in prison for 5 years, they have a big chance of staying longer or returning.

And the effect would be felt generational. Most of those kids in prison, would have their sons end up in prison, etc. Most of the people through isles raise families in their OWN community, and their kids grow up to be achievers, going to college instead of prison.

They have a 340% higher sucess rehabilitation rate than the local prison system. In fact many of the heads of departments are "graduates" of the system. IT WORKS!
what have you just described? a system which costs a lot, but eventually pays off. A social security program.

btw, you had 2,078,570 prisoners in 2003 (0,7% of population): http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_p ... -prisoners

Belgium with its 10 million inhabitants has 9.147 there (0,09% of population with an average 336 people / km2). We are taxed almost 50% and have an extensive social security system. Are they related, I wonder...

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
deepsepia
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:33 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#16

Post by deepsepia »

Must first ask:

What do you mean by poverty?

By some definitions, its "having less than other people" -- which means that unless everyone has precisely equal amounts, some people will always be poor. A poor person in America is far wealthier than an average person in Sudan, and yet as they are poorer than other Americans, they are reckoned "poor".

Eliminating poverty is impossible if population grows rapidly. There were 1 billion people on the Earth in 1900, roughly 6 billion in 2000 . . . if population grows six-fold in a short span of time, inequalities and "lumpiness" of distribution are inevitable.

The most equitable wealth distributions occur in countries where population has been stable for a long time, and which are ethnically homogenous (eg Scandinavia, Central Europe, Japan). The technical term for this is the "Gini coefficient", and it correlates very closely to low population growth.

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
Windrider
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:57 pm

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#17

Post by Windrider »

How I'll attack poverty?... probably the first thing I'll ever do is get rid of capitalism. Capitalism works in the same way as electrical current, in order for oit to work it needs to have a potential diferential, in the case of electricity is just vats, in the case of capitalism and economy, is differences of resource values in the end -which we give them value- and since they're phisically limited to our inhabited territory, in the end poverty is the least desiable but the most needed part of the capitalism equation if it has to work.

Probably I'll elaborate further later but have to leave....

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
Brains
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:14 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#18

Post by Brains »

deepsepia wrote:Must first ask:

What do you mean by poverty?.
Not the definition that you chose. People living on the street and not knowing how they'll get something to it again or the next day or whatever, these are poor. People who are not able to get medical treatment because of expenses, these are poor...

that's poverty.


I fully agree that some people will always have more than others and good for them! My 'insanely tax the rich' scheme would still give them a lot more than average joe, but they'd contribute a lot to social security as well.

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
User avatar
trashtalkr
Sports Guru
Posts: 7978
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:20 pm
Contact:

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#19

Post by trashtalkr »

Windrider wrote:How I'll attack poverty?... probably the first thing I'll ever do is get rid of capitalism.
Honestly, this would just make the situation worse. Like it or not, capitalism drives economies in a good way. The society benefits (for the most part) when we have greedy capitalist pigs making tons of money and then pumping it right back into our economy. Only with a strong economy can we start killing poverty
"If there were no eternal consciousness in a man, if at the bottom of everything there were only a wild ferment, a power that twisting in dark passions produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything, what would life be but despair?"

Soren Kierkegaard

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
Brains
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:14 am

Re: If You Were Put In Charge Of Killing Poverty...

#20

Post by Brains »

trashtalkr wrote:
Windrider wrote:How I'll attack poverty?... probably the first thing I'll ever do is get rid of capitalism.
Honestly, this would just make the situation worse. Like it or not, capitalism drives economies in a good way. The society benefits (for the most part) when we have greedy capitalist pigs making tons of money and then pumping it right back into our economy. Only with a strong economy can we start killing poverty
fair enough, but I'd add "pump it right back into our economy AND in social security." some people will just never get rich and that's not only because of not willing to work. some people will be downright poor and never ever be able to get another foothold into society. You can not just dump them. You need to give them the most basic means to live. if he doesn't have these he can't even find a job: he'd be dressed in rags and smell like shit to put it bluntly. he won't even be mopping floors in your average mickey d's.

BBcode:
Hide post links
Show post links
Post Reply