@that site...
"CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY"
Nuff said on that tip..
AYHJA
Free will and judgement
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AYHJA
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trashtalkr
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first of all, what's wrong with that site? it shows the flaws of relativism very well. also, some of relativism is ok, but i'm refurring to ethical relativism which is bad. so it's ok for those kids of columbine to shoot up their fellow students as long as they don't think it's wrong? don't you see the problem with that. if i can do anything i want to just b/c i think it may be right, then who are the judges to put me in jail for murder or stealing. what's the point of laws then if they are only 1 persons opinion of what's right and wrong. that's messed up. see, there is a difference between what people think is right then what is right. relativists believe that those 2 things are the same but they really aren't. there are so many flaws in relativism that it shouldn't hold weight.
"If there were no eternal consciousness in a man, if at the bottom of everything there were only a wild ferment, a power that twisting in dark passions produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything, what would life be but despair?"
Soren Kierkegaard
Soren Kierkegaard
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Aemeth
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"first of all, no i prolly wouldn't die for your son b/c i don't know/love him (don't get me wrong, i'm sure he's a great guy)."
^lmao, that was funny...
Anyway, let us not confuse absolutes and absolute standards...I absolutely believe that there are no absolute standards that exist except God himself. I also absolutely believe that there are individual absolutes, which is the type of relativism I tend to pursue, because though situations and personalities change, there is always an absolute right and an absolute wrong for every situation and individual (this is relativism, but not the distorted way that it is perceived through society, ie most of those ppl use it as an excuse to wilfully do wrong by sayin' "it is right for me", which is very rarely true..), yet how an individual perceives these absolute right/wrong is dependent upon his background, culture, environment, genetics, etc.
The issue of judgement must also be addressed. See, absolute standards have been placed on us since we were lil kids, as an idea of what is the most truthful way to approach each situation. Over time, they got turned into "rules" tho, and that is what I disagree with. See, if there is absolute standards on ethics, than that teaches us to subconsciously judge without even knowing it. But in truth, are you any more "Godly" than the brother sitting next to you? I dont think you are, regardless of how "spiritual" you are. You have simply been blessed with a mind that is relentless in its pursuit of God and the Achad, and that is nothing to be "proud of", if you catch my drift, but simply something to thank God and His Immeasurable Love for. You may be "more spiritual", but it has nothing to do you with you. You have simply been placed as a soldier for God, a leader to fight the fight of Truth.
Ya feel?
^lmao, that was funny...
Anyway, let us not confuse absolutes and absolute standards...I absolutely believe that there are no absolute standards that exist except God himself. I also absolutely believe that there are individual absolutes, which is the type of relativism I tend to pursue, because though situations and personalities change, there is always an absolute right and an absolute wrong for every situation and individual (this is relativism, but not the distorted way that it is perceived through society, ie most of those ppl use it as an excuse to wilfully do wrong by sayin' "it is right for me", which is very rarely true..), yet how an individual perceives these absolute right/wrong is dependent upon his background, culture, environment, genetics, etc.
The issue of judgement must also be addressed. See, absolute standards have been placed on us since we were lil kids, as an idea of what is the most truthful way to approach each situation. Over time, they got turned into "rules" tho, and that is what I disagree with. See, if there is absolute standards on ethics, than that teaches us to subconsciously judge without even knowing it. But in truth, are you any more "Godly" than the brother sitting next to you? I dont think you are, regardless of how "spiritual" you are. You have simply been blessed with a mind that is relentless in its pursuit of God and the Achad, and that is nothing to be "proud of", if you catch my drift, but simply something to thank God and His Immeasurable Love for. You may be "more spiritual", but it has nothing to do you with you. You have simply been placed as a soldier for God, a leader to fight the fight of Truth.
Ya feel?
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Aemeth
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but, I might add, absolute standards must be placed (laws) to control society, because man is corrupted and misuses the truth that has been placed in him
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trashtalkr
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"I absolutely believe that there are no absolute standards"
that is an oxymoron and doesn't make sense. how can you absolutely believe there is no absolutes. that means that either you don't absolutely believe it or there are absolutes. i know that you're gonna say that i didn't quote the whole thing but that's ok b/c the other part says what you absolutely believe is the only absolute. like i already said, either that means that there are other absolutes or you don't absolutely believe that.
you said that absolute standards had to be put into place (laws) to control society, but earlier you said there aren't any absolute standards. you are contradicting yourself and are prooving that relativism doesn't hold any weight.
that is an oxymoron and doesn't make sense. how can you absolutely believe there is no absolutes. that means that either you don't absolutely believe it or there are absolutes. i know that you're gonna say that i didn't quote the whole thing but that's ok b/c the other part says what you absolutely believe is the only absolute. like i already said, either that means that there are other absolutes or you don't absolutely believe that.
you said that absolute standards had to be put into place (laws) to control society, but earlier you said there aren't any absolute standards. you are contradicting yourself and are prooving that relativism doesn't hold any weight.
"If there were no eternal consciousness in a man, if at the bottom of everything there were only a wild ferment, a power that twisting in dark passions produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything, what would life be but despair?"
Soren Kierkegaard
Soren Kierkegaard
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Aemeth
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No....
Absolute standards and absolutes are not the same thing...
An absolute standard is "dont swear"..well, is this wrong or not? It depends on how you interpet the Bible, and what culture and environment surround you. In church white America it is a sin more than in ghetto America..
But an absolute for an individual is, lessay, how you perceive swearing. That is your absolute. You either think swearing is ok or not ok. If you don't think it is ok, and swear, you are wrong and in "sin" if you will. Yet if it varies w/in the individual, how can it be an feasible absolute standard? Like you said about that verse, God searches the heart, which is why Truth is relative, excluding God (His existance is the only absolute). That is the whole miracle of God, that is why our lives have purpose.
When I say there are no absolute standards, I mean there were none that were administered by God. If he searches your heart, how can there be? Someone may have a different thought process and think it is ok to steal a Bible so he can lead his friend to Christ. Another person may want to steal something but cant break in a locker. Who is right and who is wrong? The person who actually did/did not commit his/her respective deed, or is right/wrong based on their mindset? I think it is based on your intentions..
Anyway, absolute standards were created by man to control man, so the law searches the deed. But God searches the heart.
Absolute standards and absolutes are not the same thing...
An absolute standard is "dont swear"..well, is this wrong or not? It depends on how you interpet the Bible, and what culture and environment surround you. In church white America it is a sin more than in ghetto America..
But an absolute for an individual is, lessay, how you perceive swearing. That is your absolute. You either think swearing is ok or not ok. If you don't think it is ok, and swear, you are wrong and in "sin" if you will. Yet if it varies w/in the individual, how can it be an feasible absolute standard? Like you said about that verse, God searches the heart, which is why Truth is relative, excluding God (His existance is the only absolute). That is the whole miracle of God, that is why our lives have purpose.
When I say there are no absolute standards, I mean there were none that were administered by God. If he searches your heart, how can there be? Someone may have a different thought process and think it is ok to steal a Bible so he can lead his friend to Christ. Another person may want to steal something but cant break in a locker. Who is right and who is wrong? The person who actually did/did not commit his/her respective deed, or is right/wrong based on their mindset? I think it is based on your intentions..
Anyway, absolute standards were created by man to control man, so the law searches the deed. But God searches the heart.
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Aemeth
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the words spoken thru God in the Bible are the guidelines to follow on your way to the Achad, and they must be taken very seriously, for the Bible is the wisest of books. But they are not absolute standards i dont think, just a guide for establishing absolutes in yourself based on God/Truth.
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trashtalkr
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" You either think swearing is ok or not ok. If you don't think it is ok, and swear, you are wrong and in "sin" if you will."
you just proved my point. there is a difference between thinking what is ok and what actually is ok. i can't stress this point enough. it's the basis of what i'm writing about. i mean, just b/c some african tribes think canabalism is ok, doesn't make it ok. it's still wrong to eat ppl.
you said that absolutes and absolute standards aren't the same thing. yes they are. you can't take the absolute out of absolute standards; that's what it means.
also you said that there were no absolute standards administered by God. well, what about the 10 commandments. those seem pretty absolute to me. there isn't any misinperpretation about that.
"Anyway, absolute standards were created by man to control man, so the law searches the deed."
how could there be laws if there weren't any absolutes. think about it, if right and wrong is different for every person, that means that laws are one persons opinion. why should i be help to someone's right and wrongs if i don't believe it? if you really believe that, then you could do anything you want and think you could get away with it. that doesn't pass in the courts b/c it doesn't make any sense
you just proved my point. there is a difference between thinking what is ok and what actually is ok. i can't stress this point enough. it's the basis of what i'm writing about. i mean, just b/c some african tribes think canabalism is ok, doesn't make it ok. it's still wrong to eat ppl.
you said that absolutes and absolute standards aren't the same thing. yes they are. you can't take the absolute out of absolute standards; that's what it means.
also you said that there were no absolute standards administered by God. well, what about the 10 commandments. those seem pretty absolute to me. there isn't any misinperpretation about that.
"Anyway, absolute standards were created by man to control man, so the law searches the deed."
how could there be laws if there weren't any absolutes. think about it, if right and wrong is different for every person, that means that laws are one persons opinion. why should i be help to someone's right and wrongs if i don't believe it? if you really believe that, then you could do anything you want and think you could get away with it. that doesn't pass in the courts b/c it doesn't make any sense
"If there were no eternal consciousness in a man, if at the bottom of everything there were only a wild ferment, a power that twisting in dark passions produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything, what would life be but despair?"
Soren Kierkegaard
Soren Kierkegaard
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Aemeth
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" You either think swearing is ok or not ok. If you don't think it is ok, and swear, you are wrong and in "sin" if you will."
you just proved my point. there is a difference between thinking what is ok and what actually is ok. i can't stress this point enough. it's the basis of what i'm writing about. i mean, just b/c some african tribes think canabalism is ok, doesn't make it ok. it's still wrong to eat ppl.
lmao, how did i prove your point? I think it is the other way around...How do you determine what is right and what is wrong? Dont say "the Bible does" as they teach you to, cuz how does the Bible answer the issue of swearing? It says stuff about dont let unwholesome talk leave your mouth. It may answer the question for us, but another culture may not see it like we do. For example, some people view stuff like gossip waay more "blasphemous" than talkin' some smack when you're hangin' out with the boys.. So who are we to say THEY are wrong because WE have been raised in a different environment? About the cannibals, how can the be wrong if they don't know it? They can be wrong in our eyes, but sayin' they are wrong (assuming they dont know that they are wrong), is just as ignorant as them sayin' we are "not being resourceful" because we DONT eat other humans. Ya gotta try to see this stuff from a neutral perspective, its hard but if you want to overcome the issue of judging others this point has to be seen..
you said that absolutes and absolute standards aren't the same thing. yes they are. you can't take the absolute out of absolute standards; that's what it means.
Let me clarify this. There are absolute standards, yet they are perceived differently by each individual. Understanding the Truth to these absolute standards, and you are very close to realizing the power of the universe, for it was created by using these very standards. But since everyone interpets them differently due to how they were brought up, their environment, etc, it is ignorant to judge people based on if they dont agree with your absolutes. This is hard to explain, but hopefully you will start to see it. Basically this is what I am saying. Though there absolute standards, they will always be perceived differently, so it is impossible to judge others based on the absolutes you hold. This is why I say there are abolutes that each individual holds, but since they vary they cannot be absolute standards used to determine right and wrong, except when judgin yourself.
also you said that there were no absolute standards administered by God. well, what about the 10 commandments. those seem pretty absolute to me. there isn't any misinperpretation about that.
Yea I figured this point would be made, but still it has to do with people do have different values..I bring up the point of the dude swimping a NIV to lead his homie to the Lord..you can't judge him, only th eLord knows his heart and what his intent was. And though these commandments are pretty straightforward for us, we cannot judge people on them simply because we do not know their heart..
how could there be laws if there weren't any absolutes. think about it, if right and wrong is different for every person, that means that laws are one persons opinion. why should i be help to someone's right and wrongs if i don't believe it? if you really believe that, then you could do anything you want and think you could get away with it. that doesn't pass in the courts b/c it doesn't make any sense
Laws are in one person's opinion, but you have to remember this is not the same kind of ethical relativism that they explain in the classrooms. This is written from a belief in God viewpoint. Laws are essential to control society, and they are based on reasonable standards that were rooted in the absolute standards God created to support the universe (ie Natural Law). Though the law may not be exactly what you agree with, it is essential to the structure of society, for it would be chaos without it. Even though right and wrong is different within each individual, we all were created in Truth and in Natural Law, which is why Relativism can operate effectively in this world and not cause chaos.
To sum it, lets use a physical example. Is it reasonable to say white people are "bad" athletes cuz they cant jump as high as most black people? That is crazy, for they have no option. This is the same in right and wrong, since it is determined by your culture, environment, etc. BUT God is absolute, as is Natural law, and that is why our life has purpose.
you just proved my point. there is a difference between thinking what is ok and what actually is ok. i can't stress this point enough. it's the basis of what i'm writing about. i mean, just b/c some african tribes think canabalism is ok, doesn't make it ok. it's still wrong to eat ppl.
lmao, how did i prove your point? I think it is the other way around...How do you determine what is right and what is wrong? Dont say "the Bible does" as they teach you to, cuz how does the Bible answer the issue of swearing? It says stuff about dont let unwholesome talk leave your mouth. It may answer the question for us, but another culture may not see it like we do. For example, some people view stuff like gossip waay more "blasphemous" than talkin' some smack when you're hangin' out with the boys.. So who are we to say THEY are wrong because WE have been raised in a different environment? About the cannibals, how can the be wrong if they don't know it? They can be wrong in our eyes, but sayin' they are wrong (assuming they dont know that they are wrong), is just as ignorant as them sayin' we are "not being resourceful" because we DONT eat other humans. Ya gotta try to see this stuff from a neutral perspective, its hard but if you want to overcome the issue of judging others this point has to be seen..
you said that absolutes and absolute standards aren't the same thing. yes they are. you can't take the absolute out of absolute standards; that's what it means.
Let me clarify this. There are absolute standards, yet they are perceived differently by each individual. Understanding the Truth to these absolute standards, and you are very close to realizing the power of the universe, for it was created by using these very standards. But since everyone interpets them differently due to how they were brought up, their environment, etc, it is ignorant to judge people based on if they dont agree with your absolutes. This is hard to explain, but hopefully you will start to see it. Basically this is what I am saying. Though there absolute standards, they will always be perceived differently, so it is impossible to judge others based on the absolutes you hold. This is why I say there are abolutes that each individual holds, but since they vary they cannot be absolute standards used to determine right and wrong, except when judgin yourself.
also you said that there were no absolute standards administered by God. well, what about the 10 commandments. those seem pretty absolute to me. there isn't any misinperpretation about that.
Yea I figured this point would be made, but still it has to do with people do have different values..I bring up the point of the dude swimping a NIV to lead his homie to the Lord..you can't judge him, only th eLord knows his heart and what his intent was. And though these commandments are pretty straightforward for us, we cannot judge people on them simply because we do not know their heart..
how could there be laws if there weren't any absolutes. think about it, if right and wrong is different for every person, that means that laws are one persons opinion. why should i be help to someone's right and wrongs if i don't believe it? if you really believe that, then you could do anything you want and think you could get away with it. that doesn't pass in the courts b/c it doesn't make any sense
Laws are in one person's opinion, but you have to remember this is not the same kind of ethical relativism that they explain in the classrooms. This is written from a belief in God viewpoint. Laws are essential to control society, and they are based on reasonable standards that were rooted in the absolute standards God created to support the universe (ie Natural Law). Though the law may not be exactly what you agree with, it is essential to the structure of society, for it would be chaos without it. Even though right and wrong is different within each individual, we all were created in Truth and in Natural Law, which is why Relativism can operate effectively in this world and not cause chaos.
To sum it, lets use a physical example. Is it reasonable to say white people are "bad" athletes cuz they cant jump as high as most black people? That is crazy, for they have no option. This is the same in right and wrong, since it is determined by your culture, environment, etc. BUT God is absolute, as is Natural law, and that is why our life has purpose.
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AYHJA
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I couldn't wait...
I was hoping to return and see that this topic has flourished...Let's get down to bitness, shall we..?
@trashtalker
QUOTEyou just proved my point. there is a difference between thinking what is ok and what actually is ok. i can't stress this point enough. it's the basis of what i'm writing about. i mean, just b/c some african tribes think canabalism is ok, doesn't make it ok. it's still wrong to eat ppl.
If you can't see that this is a flaw in your own thought process and arguments, there is no need for the debate to continue...As Deeje said, whose rule or law is it, that you say what you said..? Who told you, that eating people was \"wrong\"..? And, furthermore, but on another tangent, all of humanity and maybe even life, originated from Africa, and that this something that is fact...Marinate....
Again, your thinking in terms of right and wrong will never suit you well in a discussion of relativity...When Moses led the people out of Egypt into Canaan, did you think that land was previously inhabited..? No, it wasn't...They got their mass murder on...Think they all going to hell..? The bible is full of stories where people did things in the favor of God that could get you locked up FA SHO in modern times...If that's not relativity, then I don't know what is...
And the first thing I noticed about that site, was that is threw the word \"absolute\" in the mix...Totally refuting the wrong thing...Even in times of tragedy (like Columbine) things happen for a reason...You were not those kids, you did not know them...You are not Lord God, and that was not your call...What if Columbine DIDN'T happen, and one of the children (innocent, and may they R.I.P.) went on a road trip to your town, ran a red light, and killed a member of your family..?
God forbid that, but that just goes to show that this thing is bigger than we know it...Deeje made some very good points in his last arguement, and I haven't much more to offer for it...
QUOTEEven though right and wrong is different within each individual, we all were created in Truth and in Natural Law, which is why Relativism can operate effectively in this world and not cause chaos.
Bingo...
AYHJA
@trashtalker
QUOTEyou just proved my point. there is a difference between thinking what is ok and what actually is ok. i can't stress this point enough. it's the basis of what i'm writing about. i mean, just b/c some african tribes think canabalism is ok, doesn't make it ok. it's still wrong to eat ppl.
If you can't see that this is a flaw in your own thought process and arguments, there is no need for the debate to continue...As Deeje said, whose rule or law is it, that you say what you said..? Who told you, that eating people was \"wrong\"..? And, furthermore, but on another tangent, all of humanity and maybe even life, originated from Africa, and that this something that is fact...Marinate....
Again, your thinking in terms of right and wrong will never suit you well in a discussion of relativity...When Moses led the people out of Egypt into Canaan, did you think that land was previously inhabited..? No, it wasn't...They got their mass murder on...Think they all going to hell..? The bible is full of stories where people did things in the favor of God that could get you locked up FA SHO in modern times...If that's not relativity, then I don't know what is...
And the first thing I noticed about that site, was that is threw the word \"absolute\" in the mix...Totally refuting the wrong thing...Even in times of tragedy (like Columbine) things happen for a reason...You were not those kids, you did not know them...You are not Lord God, and that was not your call...What if Columbine DIDN'T happen, and one of the children (innocent, and may they R.I.P.) went on a road trip to your town, ran a red light, and killed a member of your family..?
God forbid that, but that just goes to show that this thing is bigger than we know it...Deeje made some very good points in his last arguement, and I haven't much more to offer for it...
QUOTEEven though right and wrong is different within each individual, we all were created in Truth and in Natural Law, which is why Relativism can operate effectively in this world and not cause chaos.
Bingo...
AYHJA
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