Luke 23:43

#11

Deep,

WOW!

Thank you so much for correcting me.

I was totally thinking this quote was from Joseph of Aramathea.

Thank you for pointing this out. seriously.

I didn't look it up, and so I made a mistake in the verse's context. I admit it, and bow to you in catching it; and take no shame in the humility I feel.

In the case of the thieves, this statement would have a completely different context, and I think your purposed context is certainly plausible and consistent with the linguistic indications, which are still there.

I truly apologize for any confusion I may have caused, but I will keep the post there, just to show people that i as all external sources, am not infallible.

vertical,
raum

#12

None of us are. I am often caught trying to remember the context of passages that I certainly recognize, but suddenly have no idea where to find them. Part of the aging process I guess.

Your statement about all external sources not being infallible is dead on too. Far too often people let others' interpretations of a 3rd external source dictate their actions and/or beliefs. Trust in your inner voice, that Spirit that is in all things. Use the little brains that God gave you to figure out what your course in life should be.

#13

Ok, so raum, would you like to translate it a little differently now? Or is it still mean the same?

#14

Raum I don't buy your version of the Garden. Jesus knew that he was going to have to suffer and that he wasn't going to be a Conquering King. The Jews wanted a King to come and conquer the Romans but Jesus knew that that wasn't the type of King the Messiah was. He repeatedly talked about serving and how a leader serves (i.e. the washing of the feet). He says in the Garden that if it's possible for the cup to pass then have it, but it doesn't say or even imply that during this time is the first time he realizes it. If it was, then why would He predict Peter denying him and Judas betraying him?

#15

trash,

I ain't selling my version of the Garden.

The quest for the King of Israel had almost nothing to do with romans. It was rome that exploited their need for a king. Also, news flash - The Jews had a King at the time fo the Romans... The didn't have the Tartizim Ha Melek. The King with the sword, or "Warrior King." The king who would end the wars which cost one of the tribes of israel.

It is Jeshua who comes forth from the line of Judah (through his mother mari), the line of Kings since Caleb alone followed Joshua to Jericho to spy on the city. He was to be a king, and had the bloodline. It was common knowledge that all the children were slain by Herod the elder, and his son was on the throne. Everyone in Judea, and far beyond knew this king was a Melekh ha-Aryeh (A KING; A LION ANNOINTED BY HEAVEN TO RULE THE EARTH IN THE THE NAME ISRAEL THROUGH THE JUDAH BLOODLINE).

Jeshua revealed his kingdom was not just an earthly kingdom, and he wished no bloodshed, but that people might believe in him, there need be no blood shed on earth for the kingdom of heaven. he was far from the truth.

I am of a mind that much of what Jeshua was saying was "in a trance" state, common to those of high spiritual character.

I seems to me that you are basically having a problem thinking jesus is infallible or somehow doesn't have full knowledge of what is happening at all times. I actually am quite the opposite. i don' think he ran around all "Godded" out all the time, and i think he was fallible. He had to be to be human.

The ideas he got a service is leadership are ancient, amn. and by that time he had already traveled as far as India and tibet, with time in Greece well spent... people used to get around back in the days... and so did ideas. Many of the ideas of leadership in the bible were inspired by teachings of Lao Tzu coming down the silk road from china to rome, egypt, and beyond. It is on this "road" that gnosticism was born, and christianity developed into a martyr religion.

Answer me this:

How could he understand a damn one of us if he already knew his fate, which is the one single most important motivation in our actions to this day; the uncertainty of our future! He constantly experienced doubt and confusion and is says in the bible that he experienced every suffering of man. How could he not experience confusion and disappointment and the ultimate humility that his death would come wearing a grisly robe?

I think Jesus is sensationalized in the Bible, and by a church that he says knows him but a little, for they know not themselves (in the revelation). This is my argument against the chaste life proposed by catholocism and the morale guilt imposed by people who think we are only here to deny the flesh.

He makes mistakes, and he shows fear and doubt and anger. He is not immune to the weakness of humans, in fact quite the opposite. He has to feel it so he learns the power of FAITH.

The difference is that he Triumphs over those weaknesses by submitting to higher authority. Still - He holds the hand of his disciple who cuts off the roman's ear... but he doesn't stay that hand before it cuts the Roman, right? jeez, man...

You find a place where you think jesus even makes a reference that he knew his grisly fate all along in the words of the Apostles. Quote me some verses, and I will show you what they really say. In my evidence, There are many times when jesus is showing fear "we might not make it" talks and huge morale boosting shows for his followers and his men are all carrying swords!!! I know later in the bible it says "Jesus knew all along" but it is Paul's letters who only sees Jesus after he is blind, the mythmaker of morality, that says that. A man who had already been conning Romans and Jews alike.

I do not persecute Paul, but I do not trust him. I argue that his works belong in the bible, as well as revelations. i consider them stand alone texts... of some worth and inspiration, but not fully in context. It is is Paul who creates the view of Jeshua constanly feeling sorrow for his fate, which he understands completely. He encourages that every moment of Jesus's life was spent in full knowledge and all that jazz.

but, lemme ask you this... If jesus was all "cool with it, and knew it was going to happen" why is he scared to anger when he comes out and all his boys are asleep, who each seem to want to write about what he said?

If he knew it would happen, he surely knew when, or then he didn't know it all. and if he didn't know it all, there is no way to say what he knew and what he didn't. I make him human, so he can be man-made-God.

you might be suprised if you could see that alot of the "book" you are using to base your argument on is written by different people who probably never even knew each other, or were alive at the same time.

He predicted peter denying him because Peter was a yes man, who was the same kind of person who acts like your biggest supporter. Oh yeah, by that time, Jesus kinda had an accident with the Temple, remember... he knew he was in the shit then. that is why the Romans were looking for him.

He never said Judas would betray him.. he said one of them would betray him. he never specifies which, and I don't think it was Judas who betrayed him. It would be a mockery of the pain of treachery for him to know who would betray him. I don't think it was Judas who betrayed him, either understanding that their cause was lost or seeking mercy for Jesus for his crimes against caesar and sought to get Jesus caught before he got killed, and unknowingly martyred the Christ as a symbol, forever transforming the world. I don't pretend to know what is up with Judas, exactly, but I think it was Peter who betrayed him who had to abandon him so he could conquer hell, and he was forgiven when seeing Jesus after the ressurection.

vertical,
raum

#16

QUOTE(raum) He never said Judas would betray him.. he said one of them would betray him. he never specifies which, and I don't think it was Judas who betrayed him. It would be a mockery of the pain of treachery for him to know who would betray him. I don't think it was Judas who betrayed him, either understanding that their cause was lost or seeking mercy for Jesus for his crimes against caesar and sought to get Jesus caught before he got killed, and unknowingly martyred the Christ as a symbol, forever transforming the world. I don't pretend to know what is up with Judas, exactly, but I think it was Peter who betrayed him who had to abandon him so he could conquer hell, and he was forgiven when seeing Jesus after the ressurection.

wow, interesting perspective..so then when Jesus made the statement regarding the betrayal...was he just hoping? LoL, but..

#17

YOu don't believe that it was Judas? Jesus tells Judas to go do what he has to do. That implies that He knows that Judas is going to betray him.

Jesus was man, yet he was also God. He didn't make mistakes. The Bible says he was tempted in every way man is. That doesn't mean He sinned or gave into those tempations.

He knew that He was going to die. Isaiah talks all about that. Jesus predicts His death many times throughout the Gospels

#18

you tt, Jesus told Judas to go do what he had to do, right.
He did that...
How is that betraying him?

Peter said "nah, i don't even know that chump."
three times before the cock crows...
who betrayed him?

#19

Peter denyed Jesus...he didn't betray him. Betrayal, by definition is "To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance". That's what Judas did. Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him and that's why He told Judas to do what he had to do. Judas had to betray Jesus

#20

A violation of trust and allegiance would and DOES constitute betrayal. The fact is, Jesus was betrayed by most of his self-proclaimed followers at some point or another, by simply ignoring, eliminating, and conveniently misquoting his teachings.
I personally think Judas betrayed him, regardless of his motives for handing him over, but Peter DENYING him? weak, homez.