ADN

Jaco...

I don't know how exactly you're trying to slice this thing...But really, on a GLOBAL scale, nothing can compete with slavery, homez...Do you not think that Slave Masters were raping the female slaves..? Do you think as a whole, that the majority of white people being raped and murdered, are being raped and murdered by blacks..?

And because you lost your history book, that because it's an equal level crime wise, reparations aren't necessary..? Are you saying that a black person that has never committed a crime, should be held liable for the crimes committed by others..?

In todays south...Do you really feel that it's the white man at a disadvantage..?

Can't wait to read that..!

But again, there is no crime comparison man, really...Not when we're talking about affirmative action...That's a whole nother topic, you can start that if you want...

As far as I can tell, I haven't been affected directly by your Affirmative Action policies...but I wasn't awae that you could get fired over them?, is that how it works?. I was under the impression that it was just this Public Relations move to try and underplay prejudice in the workplace by "balancing"(yeah, right) the demographics.
I'm not really sure why the period of slavery is being brought into this discussion, I don't think we can even begin to talk about a body count, and no, I don't think the black population in the US has tipped the scales yet.

xen,

I usually agree with you, but in this case, when one of the most memorable speeches of the debate of affirmative action includes the following passage:

You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: 'now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.' You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe you have been completely fair . . . This is the next and more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬?not just legal equity but human ability†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬?not just equality as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and as a result.

I am inclined one of the primary motivations is reparation. The problem is this was done by Lyndon B. Johnson, in 1965 at Howard University, to turn the tide against the rise of American communism. and we all know about L.B.J., yeah? By fostering this kind of movement, what he did was gain more supporters in the minorities for American military action than ever before. Just in time for Vietnam...

Even the term "affirmative action" is a ploy devised by Johnson. It is a term inspired by John F. Kennedy, when he wrote that projects financed with federal funds "take affirmative action" to ensure that hiring and employment practices are free of racial bias.

In terms of education and California, check this out:

In a 1996 referendum, California voters outlawed racial preferences. Or did they? At the University of California, a lovely backdoor has been found for beating the ban. UC decided to give the SAT II twice as much weight as the SAT I in determining college admission. After all, when standardized tests such as SATs are denounced for cultural bias, a particular animus is reserved for the SAT II (which tests knowledge in specific subjects such as history, biology and French) on the grounds that it is more culturally influenced than the SAT (which measures general reasoning and linguistic ability). Ah. But the beauty of this odd change is that it gets underqualified Hispanic students into the University of California system. In one predominately Hispanic high school, among the worst in the state, reports the Wall Street Journal, the number of graduates accepted to UC schools increased by more than 50 percent this year. How did they do it? They aced the Spanish language SAT II.

As a result the number of First generation Hispanics, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Indonesians, Arabs, and Africans and even French, Germans, and Eastern Europeans with no ties in America or contribution to its history, taxes, or import globally were given preferential treatment over the disadvantaged minorities who often have contributed centruies of their familes history to this country.

So, its 1997, Nov, and...

The schools get flooded with immigrants (many with free rides because their "scores" are so high), all the while the black kid serving them pizza during lunch off campus has no idea how he will keep the phone on this month, much less think about going to school, and tries not to think about his brother that he lost in Desert Storm. And the white kid on the corning sparing for change who can't talk to his parents without getting the shit knocked out of him is one of the "advantaged" who gets to live in a building that is condemned while the El Nino makes his floor into the swamps he escaped. And the half-korean girl in the smoke shop is the descendant of a man who fought in the Korean war to ensure that his family and country are secure.

The black kid can't go to school, cause he can't make the grades, cause he has been working since he was fifteen. He would join the military, but he is afraid he would end up dead like his brother who was killed in Desert Storm, for "college money"... or worse like that white kid who was in the navy and got fucked over, and is out on the street.

The white kid can't go to school, because a search on his parents shows he is ineligible for finacial aid, but his parents want nothing to do with him. He is a veteran with admin problems, and has no less than five direct members of his ancestry that spent more than five years in wars. And a late grandmother that was in the Nurse corp. Maybe he can get the black guy in the pizza shop to help him get a job there..?

The Korean girl can't go to school because she is working in her ailing grandmother's smoke shop, without pay again this week. That's the only way she can afford her grandmother's hospital bills. That one boy might be a vagrant, but he's kinda hot, and she keeps giving him free smokes, because he has the most wonderful mind... and knows everything.

I'm sure they all give a fuck that another "friend from over seas" is going to school on their taxes...

I know all these people... because I am one of them. Give ya a hint, I didn't lose a brother in desert storm, and I have never worked in a smoke shop.

Meanwhile, I got cleaned up and did a little better for myself. Then, I start going to the campus. Can't afford to get the grades, but I can go to learn. What do I find out, these teachers are bullshit. I correct them, they ask me to leave. I am disturbing their classes. So what happens next, I start talking to students, and they all listen to me. I start getting asked "What do you teach, I wanna take your class. Is there room?"

There's always room at Vertical University.

vertical,
raum

...I think we still agree then, if I understood your post :-k
I don't know if my post seemed to have a sardonic tone to it, maybe?, the fact is...I really DON'T know all that much about Affirmative Action.

I presently live in a priviledged piece of real estate in the middle of the Caribbean. A place populated with folks that although vociferously denounce the "evils of American Imperialism", are scared shitless to truly embrace independence, 'cause their asses know (or maybe don't know) what happens when you decide you don't need Uncle Sam's allowance and get to growin'on your own. However, I was born and raised in an independent republic, historically plagued with violence and inequality. In spite of civil wars, having Spain as your parent (oh the stories I could tell you), a seemingly endless parade of puppet-presidents and equally maleable and corrupt "business owners", and oh yes....that little drug-trafficking bit...how could I forget?.
Anyways, in spite of all that, my beautiful Colombia has managed to mass-produce what is now considered an unhealthy amount of professionals in every goddamed field you could think of. Why unhealthy?, because they leave school superbly over-qualified, and enter a non-existing job market, the quality of our education is unquestionable, but there are no jobs available for them. The result?...plenty of doctors, lawyers, engineers, poets, writers...driving cabs around, or desperately leaving the country, mostly heading to Europe, sometimes USA bound.

My point is, there's no room for Affirmative Action in Colombia (not that any of you are remotely interested in a job search there...) you don't make it a habit to "look for a better job", you keep hold of the shit you have like it's bottled life. You could also pray you are somwehow related to anyone in government, get your foot in the door...but that's common in every country.

I was raised with that mentality, and have gotten comparatively lazy upon living 15+ years in Puerto Rico, plus a few in the US. I went to art school and had a couple of jobs while I was in the States, all due to my skills (I'm fairly certain of it), I also worked painting houses and in a construction-destruction gig for a while, and I don't think AA had much to do with it. I am serious when I tell you that I don't know how AA really works. I know what it's supposed to do, but I really don't know if it does it.

Me either...

And the only thing I heard about it, was when white students started complaining about it...It is truly a fucked a situation, you can't penalize the present for the sins of the past, but at the same time, someone doesn't rape and murder your children, and you sit down 10 years later, with the whole let by gones be by gones bit...

But what do you do..? Without quotas (of equally qualified minorities) the chain is never broken...They call that "The Good Ole Boy" system here in Mississippi...My fiance, experienced it first hand, and HAD to make a career move...Effectively, a predominantly white circle of independent workers told her that she couldn't work in their field...

So in a case like that, you see how a quota is effective, and in other instances, you see how it might not...It comes down to two things, I think...

1. Is personal experience...Natively, everyone may feel the burn, while non minorities know nothing of unearned privledge,and shriek in horror at the fact someone is getting a job just because of their race...Both sides have very valid points..

2. The majority, and the minority...Among your peers in race RAUM, your story is as unique as mine, in that I don't have a hard luck story to tell...I grew up poor, but I didn't feel poor, and I didn't care...I had a roof over my head, and hot food to eat, and my mom washed and ironed the 2 pair of pants I had every other day so I wouldn't be dirty...I saw on TV the children with flies landing in their eyes, and I felt privledged...

To me, it's all about looking at the person against you, and telling yourself that you won't be beaten...I would be thankful if someone who otherwise wouldn't consider me for a job did, because of my race, but not to hire me on that merit alone...

my point is that affirmative action does not work to balance the American condition set in place by slavery..

see, here is the idea. Minority Americans do not get the advantages. Mostly it helps immigrants get education on Amercian tax payers funds (as less than 20% of them pay back their loans in full.) Their advantage is that they can take the SAT II on their native culture, which they have spend their lives in.

There is no educational value for contemporary American culture (in any form) on a standardized test that will help you get into college. There is for many cultures. Thus, as a country, we are disadvantaged in testing of academic requirements for higher education, and the funding neccesary for tuition IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

Compare to the average white/ olive brown or black /yellow/or red American youth, who knows very little of Europe/Africa/Asia/ or PreColonial North America, and is kept in substandard awareness of his own country which is built on the backs of his nameless ancestors, and really doesn't have much motivation to cultivate intelligence, as it will estrange him from his peers, and often lead to physical confrontation or social humiliation.

But it doesn't stop with blacks, and it didn't start with them - though I recognize that the conditions of their oppression is certainly one of the darkest elements of American History. Attempts were made to enslave the indiginous people, but they were ill-suited to slavery, having a "systemic dislike for labour, which seemed to cause them to fall ill." So, instead, it was decided to kill them off. Instead, it was better to import laborers. More than 70 of all original immigrants to the English Colonies were indentured servants, which is slavery sans the physical violence (most of the time). Many of these people fought for their freedom, and that fight for freedom resulted in indentured servants demanding their freedom - which most of them were organized easily enough and effectively capable of revolting. Many were killed in those revolts, even more were left to fend for themselves. Most of these people moved into the unexplored areas of the French Colony of Louisana or the Spanish territories where they could defend themselves and try to find a little bit of that prosperity, sometimes even working on a plantation.

It did not come cheap. For one, the plantations needed laborers. That was all there was to it. The "plan" to inport an African people to this country for servitude was primarily French. Many of their other colonies were well suited for the transport of Afro-Carribean servants already established along the way. Thus, you had more servants survive the journey, and closer resources.

Most of the white people in this country are descendents of unwilling slaves that were shipped here, as well.

vertical,
raum

I've managed to read (not enough) on the SAT II after you mentioned them, I wasn't aware of them, so thank you for that. Pretty interesting debate over it. I think that you hit on an interesting point though. I found in a few of the debates over the validity of this new test that, North American students (both black and white) are performing poorly on English-worded tests.

QUOTEDavid Benjamin, owner of a private education company called Ahead of the Class, said he believes the SAT II tests are unfair to African-Americans and Caucasians based on the third part of the test.

On the SAT II, all students take a math and writing test and are allowed to choose the third from tests including history, language, literature and sciences. Benjamin said that many bilingual students take the language test in their native language, while Caucasians and African-Americans cannot do the same.

†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬‚¦‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦¢‚¬Å“The second-language advantage on the SAT II will allow many bilingual students to gain an unfair advantage over other students in the UC admissions decision-making process,†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬? he said.

Using data from 1999, Benjamin said he has found that Chinese students who were taking the Chinese exam scored an average of 747 out of 800, Korean students who took the Korean exam scored an average of 724 and Latino students who took the Spanish exam scored an average 683. Benjamin said Caucasian students who did not have a natural second language tended to take the American History exam and scored an average 574, while African-American students tended to take literature and scored an average of 493.

For a guy who's against this new test...he seems to suggest English speakers, just aren't really trying all that hard.

CODELast week's Daily Bruin contained the latest assaults on diversity that have been ongoing since the end of affirmative action. It is the latest in the double-speak campaign of "We want diversity, but we will find anything that can level the playing field for underrepresented minorities to be unfair or illegal." This latest assault was on the language test of the SAT II.



After finding that all three of the SAT IIs predict college GPA better than the SAT I (which is known to be more difficult for African Americans, Latinos and Native Americans than for other groups †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œ and which UC President Richard Atkinson has strongly suggested should be eliminated in the admissions process), some now raise an argument against the SAT II language test.



The argument that surfaced recently at the UC Board on Admissions and Relations with Schools (BOARS) is that people who speak Spanish or Chinese at home, for example, have an advantage over native English speakers when they take an SAT II in their native language and, therefore, these tests should not be given the same weight as other SAT achievement tests.



The proponents of this argument seem to forget that most of us native English speakers are taking all the tests in our home language. The logical conclusion is that we should discount all of the SAT Is and II taken by English speakers because it is in our home language. Or the other equally logical (and equally absurd) possibility is that native English speakers should be taking all the tests in a second language such as Spanish or Chinese.



Instead of conceding the overwhelming disadvantage of having to go to school and be tested in a second language, the proponents of this argument draw attention to the one situation †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œ achievement in a non-English home language †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬¢‚¬¦¢¢¬…œ in which the disadvantage is eradicated and even reversed.



Another absurd conclusion that follows from the argument against giving weight to foreign language achievement tests is that because a student is a native English speaker, he or she will automatically do well on the English SATs, I or II. If this were so, the test would be useless, because every native English speaker would get an 800 on both English "aptitude" (SAT I) and English achievement (SAT II). The English SATs would be totally nonpredictive of later academic accomplishment.



Obviously, this is not the case.



It is equally obvious that you do not get an 800 on the Spanish test from speaking Spanish at home. It is necessary to study hard and develop a literary knowledge of Spanish (or any other language), just like it is for English-language students taking the English tests.


From the Daily Bruin Online (UCLA), Tuesday, October 30, 2001

QUOTEAnother absurd conclusion that follows from the argument against giving weight to foreign language achievement tests is that because a student is a native English speaker, he or she will automatically do well on the English SATs, I or II. If this were so, the test would be useless, because every native English speaker would get an 800 on both English \"aptitude\" (SAT I) and English achievement (SAT II). The English SATs would be totally nonpredictive of later academic accomplishment.

Obviously, this is not the case.

It is equally obvious that you do not get an 800 on the Spanish test from speaking Spanish at home. It is necessary to study hard and develop a literary knowledge of Spanish (or any other language), just like it is for English-language students taking the English tests.

Getting teased over being a nerd is more of a global epidemic, I personally took my share of beatdowns over it. My parents, for better or worse would provide a heavier serving of whoopass if I "wasted the opportunities", so it seems to me more an issue of drive and necessity, rather than "unfair advantage".

But I think we are still in agreement, AA will not, it CANNOT make up for past injustices. IMO, that is simply impossible.

Putting my non crippled foot into it.

AA wwas originally intended to give people of different races an equal and fair chance to get into both community and four year colleges. It also applied to middle and high income jobs.

The problems began when white applicants were being turned away from jobs and colleges because according to one of the mandates of AA, businesses had to fulfill a "quota" of ethnic applicants.

The whites complained that they had the qualifications for the jobs and were being pushed out because the jobs had to hire ethnic people to reach their target. They found that most of the applicants had some to litttle qualifications for the intended positions.

That's my interpretation of what AA was intended to do. If I'm wrong, I sincerely apologize to whoever I offended.