ADN

I agree. I reckon that the Catholic Christians just bundled together all the things that they didn't like, and things that \"fell\" from God, the serpent, Lucifer, Satan, temptation etc., and made it into one big bad guy- an image. They gave him a stage to do his act (ie Hades->Hell), and away he went, raising evil in his realm and corrupting followers of God.

There's a song by Mercyful Fate called The Oath. In fact, what it is about is "satan", but to deliberately "fall from God" in order to follow 'satan'.

Satan's Fall? That's kind of going round in a circle, isn't it?



If you don't mind me asking, raum, what is "satan's" hidden name?

interesting discussion this one. of all things religious, the questions cornering an explanation towards the unmistakenly existing concepts of Good and Bad is what interests me most.

personally i am convinced Good and Bad exist solely in the confines of our own selves. we are the only rulers of both extremes and we - consciously or unconsciously - are making daily choices. That is one aspect: we are all responsible for choosing on which side we are on. Now if in that Collection of Individuals one side is clearly winning from the other, we create a good or a bad world. it seems to be bad at the moment and logically so. We are trained for "2.000 years" that the above choice is not ours to make or judge. We can only act and try to be good, but eventually it is our Supreme Being (as from in our religion) which will eventually evaluate us, as He is the Only One who knows. Ergo, humans can walk around doing whatever they please - good or bad. They confess their sins from time to time; they pray here and there and all will be swell, because our Good God will eventually forgive us. In all, all responsibility is given to that Something Unnameable; that responsibility is not required from us and we all see where it brings us. So according to me, "Church" or "Religion" is an invention of the one being discussed in this thread, as "religion" as we know it seems to result in us being mindless, irresponsible creatures walking around this planet.

As to where Satan is coming from, raum did mention so. I am surprised you did not bring up The Apocryphon of John (look it up on http://www.gnosis.org). There seems to be an explanation of the "Fallen Angel" in there as well, although I have problems understanding the complete text. Judging from that text Satan's original name could be Belias as well, or Yaltabaoth, or Saklas, or Samael. As far as I understand that text, man's life seems to be "blown in" by Yaltabaoth's breath. Hence, it seems, man was created evil. "Luckily" the blessed One, the Mother-Father, the beneficent and merciful One, had mercy on the power of the mother which had been brought forth out of the chief archon, for they (the archons) might gain power over the natural and perceptible body. And he sent, through his beneficent Spirit and his great mercy, a helper to Adam, luminous Epinoia which comes out of him, who is called Life. And she assists the whole creature, by toiling with him and by restoring him to his fullness and by teaching him about the descent of his seed (and) by teaching him about the way of ascent, (which is) the way he came down. And the luminous Epinoia was hidden in Adam, in order that the archons might not know her, but that the Epinoia might be a correction of the deficiency of the mother. So it seems that we do have the power to judge Good from Evil by ourselves, thanks to this beneficent Spirit "Epinoia".

Summing that up: religion takes that need to judge ourselves away from us and into the hands of our churches. Which to me at least seems to be dangerous.

... I expected some follow-up...

I think is twice as probable God's existance than Satan's.

QUOTE(Brains)... I expected some follow-up...

Well, I certainly didn't need much more clarification than

"Satan" is a storybook villian in the mythos of Christianity. "

That about sealed the deal for me once it was explained...Kinda just seemed like beating a stick into the ground afterwards...LoL...

But the points you made Brains, were pounded out in a thread about relativity, the perception of right and wrong, etc...We've covered lots of ground in the VU in a year, much of the debates have simmered down, and or been settled...If you're bored, feel free to bring up some of the older topics and add new light to them...

There is a topic named "Sin" a few pages in, and another topic on Free Will,
http://www.ayhja.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=348&t=2622

You should pose a new question for the VU... /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

apologies, Brains, I never saw your post!

excellent one, at that~

the words on god were awesome and we tend to hold very SIMILAR beliefs..

As for the name of the Shaitan, it is in the Hebrew - Halal ben Shahar; meaning "Light of God, Son of Dawn."

Meditate on that for a minute and you will see why the Gnostics maintained that Yaldaboth the wicked demiurge that created humanity so it may have follwers to torture was incarnated as Iesu, who was a suffering servant to bring his crime of Creation before those who he doomed to such suffering. And how in his sacrifice are all Living things redeemed, and is his hell conquered.

vertical,
raum

so Yaltabaoth got punished for his disobedience then? he got to experience that what he had created?! and suffered immensely for it?!

that certainly is an interesting approach towards Iesu.

Sorry to detract from the discussion (which I will comment on later, good stuff Brains), but did anyone actually click on the links I posted?

Pete, I can't do so at work, and that's the only place i get online right now...

Brains,

That's one of the basic premises of Gnosticism...

It is our devine birthright to experience the suffering we *collectively* brought into being. The irony is that our presence here is not the problem, but the void we created *elsewhere*; and the suffering is not ours. (see my comments about Pan Ku and Nu Wa. yes, Nu Wa is the basis of the name of Nuit (Nut, Nu, and other vairiations as well), the mother of Isis, Set, and Osiris (Isa, Se, and Asar, actually). Her place is crucial to the development of the religion and legends of the Nepher in the Eygptian and Macedonian sense of Cosmin being as no being.) So, suck it up, and learn to make it work for you, and find your place in the scheme of reconciling the existence we have instead of seeking to avoid it, or dominate it.

vertical,
raum