ADN

In 3rd world countires where ppl dont have the money and the presents that you are talking about actually find that they reach a different level of bonds with their family and actually realise what is important. To them the luxeries of presents and money are just that, luxueries. Family is important, knowing that they are there for each other, thats important. Knowing that their is nothing important to them then their families who they would give up their lives for thats important.

You assume you have killed the christmas point. But this thread was never about christmas. I'm not trying to prove that im MR SAVE THE HOLIDAYS, although it seems that you want to be MR SAVE THE RICH DUDE. I for one have learnt that there is more stuff important then those $100 shoes that you get for christmas mate. I have been situations where I have realised that money and those presents are the last thing on my mind when I celebrate any holiday. I'm thankful to have my brother and my mom with me when I sit down to have dinner at that public holiday.

I never said that they should forget about the food that they have mate. Im saying there are other things besides food and the present that they get. Things like family.

By the way if you feel this is bullshit then dont post man. However the real concern is that people disregard that there are other things more important then those presents and food.

Wtf is wrong with you?


since when does openning presents on 1 day of the year make me forget that I have family?

since when does buying and recieving gifts for people i love make you assume that I think presents are more important than people?


something is obviously wrong with you if you think that I only buy presents for my baby becasue I want to get a present back....I buy something for her to show her I love her......and no, thats not the only way I can do it.......its one day out of the year that calls for it.


You're a confused person who has some unknown grudge with holidays for some reason.

I can be thankful I have my family while I'm openning presents on Christmas.....or while I'm at school on September 15th......theres no difference in my feelings towards the people I love...


maybe you need holidays to make you thankful for people......the rest of us can maintain that level while also sharing gifts...

Dude wtf is wrong with you. Did you feel bad about your NBA players idea being shot down or something and started attacking me. If you want to attack me and its seems obvious that you do not like my thinking style then do it in the flame otherwise stick to the topic at hand.

This thread is about how the holiday seasons all around the world have been turned into a materialistic time and how we are being conditioned through active advertising to believe that materialism is all thats important.

You say one day that calls for giving presents why not it be like that everyday. If the feelings are really that strong you dont need presents to show that man. You can make it specail in a whole lot of other ways then just giving presents and I'm not saying there is anything bad with giving presents. Im just saying there are other alternatives. If you have the need to give presents why not any other day of the year, just randomly pick one to buy her a nice present and not to wait for christmas man. Why on christmas day?

We all now believe that this day we must give. You are compelled to buy her something because its christmas, and proably she feel's the same and why ? coz its christmas. You are telling me that its not that you have been conditioned to believe that you HAVE to give presents to those you love?

If you want to discuss this further then go ahead but if you want to attack me then just take it to the flames coz you are starting to piss me off alrite LG.

you're telling me that holidays have become matarialized by advertsing because eveyrone feels the need to buy people stuff during them.........


thats a statement....not a discussion topic.....

I agree with that statement


what I dont agree with ...is any problem arising from that....nothing is wrong with buying people presents during christmas in my opinion......so...that is where we differ in opinion....not in the oringal topic....

Ok. The thing is that it ends up exactly at the same place. Why are you buying the presents?

You can buy those same presents any other day of the year for the same emotions too without it needing to be christmas. Of course nothing is wrong with buying presents but you dont need to be compelled to buy presents on a particular day.

QUOTE(Deepak)A, dont you think conditioning children from a very early age to regard presents and material possessions is absurd?

I'm not sure where you are going with this myself...How is me buying a $6 Spider-Man toy for my 3 year old teaching him to be materialistic..? There is one day out of the year especially, when he gets to open gifts that are under a tree...I surely don't buy him gifts expecting a gift in return...And I'm not a rich man, I don't go out everyday of the week buying him toys...I teach him fundamentals, and reward him when he does well...Are you saying that one day can destroy that..?

I don't understand how you equate materialism into that...The most logical thing that you are overlooking here, is probably cultural differences...Christmas has NEVER been about gifts to me and my family...I lived in a VERY different tax bracket as a kid, if I even got a toy I was estatic...Like I said, the holidays for me and mine has always been about family, friends, and food, and in my eyes, you would be hard pressed to feel that Christmas was anything but for someone else...

Deepak,

There is no such inherent conflict between the spiritual and the material. Buying gifts is a means of intimacy. There are seasons that this is easier because prices are easier. Christmas was not celebrated as a Christian Holiday until the idea of Birthdays were stolen from Pagans. Orignally, the celebration of Christ's birth was condemned by Origen. It was AFTER the American revolution that Christmass was accepted as a holy day, as some priest's had been observing the orgies of Saturnalia; the roman holiday where Merchants who traveled the lands would get to go home and gave their wares that would be in stock to the poor for cheap to make room for the spring yield, and often took offerings of food, sex, wine, and slaves, promises of later payment, and other goods just to get the stuff out of the way. This was done also to be further rewarded the next time they had to go about their traveling business, and to make sure their families were taken care of while they were gone.

The *horrible* truth of "American corporate Christmas marketing fueling the materialism of people" is the reality of the Western origins of the day. Christmas was not celebrated legally in America until the 1800's, but even before then, the shop keeps would sell discounted sock about to expire for exactly the same reason the Roman Merchants would: To ensure the next years prosperity, and to ensure business when people needed things in the better seasons.

The issue is that this has been confused with the fact that the Winter solstice was celebrated as the time of the Conception of Iesu, not the birth. He was traditionally a Leo (born under the sign of Judah, see?), born at Midsummer, according to ancient tradition older than anything in the Bible. When the church accepted the notion of Christ's birth, they decided to put it in the winter season, so it was clearly distinguished from every Pagan celebration. However, they used the Gaelic Yuhl (Yule) as the basis, and the Yule is the solar phallic symbol of the impregnating force, which bright forth Llwellyn (Lion) at the Midsummer rite of Lugh,.. which is the back ward pronounciation of "Yule." The treasures in the middle of the yule log are the sperm, and the hearth is the womb.

I personally disagree with the idea that penniless people have more spiritual integrity. It's easy for people who have nothing to say "well, at least we have God." but rarely do they have anything but less opportunity to do ill with their money. It takes a true spritual integrity to be materially sucessful and to let wisdom be your guidance in how you use it.

That being said, I bought gifts for my girl; jewlery of great significance

gold, symbolizing The Endowing Light of Day
silver, symbolizing The Enduring Light of Night
white gold, symbolizing The Mysterious Light of the Ocean's Surface
amethyst, symbolizing A symbol of Heavenly Understanding and Power over Death
rubies, symbolizing The Four Worlds of the Alchemical Elements
sapphires, symbolizing The Seven Lords of the Alchemical Planets
and diamonds. symbolizing The Immortal Stars of the Mezel HaMazloth (The Hebrew Zodiac)

My message was abundantly clear: All that I have to give and that life has to offer is but adornment to the reality of you.

Who among you will suggest she is not worthy to wear rich jewels or I have no right to enjoy my reward for the work I do?

My girl spent it all on Christmas, and though I was adamant about no tree in my home, I got lots of gifts, and some that I would never buy for myself, even though I easily could.

We even got AYHJA a little sumthin-sumthin,.. but I guess we should take it back, huh?

As for those who have no food, shelter, or company for Christmas, I will not speak for them or against them. I just donate what I can, and remember those times I was there myself.

Your diatribe about how family is more important in third world countries is more important where they have no gifts is confounding, being that most Third world countries have elaborate gift giving and feasting on a regular basis. I don't see how giving your life for your family is a criteria for stronger Love than giving your family an X-Box 360, myself. In this respect, I think you are making a gross assumption. I forget: When is the last time you were in the Middle East?

See, in Dubai, it is a given that a rich father will rent out the whole FRIGGIN MALL ARCADE to celebrate the birth of his child. He will invite ALL the other children and their fathers to the mall for the party. And all the kids who know they will not get the mall arcade rented for their birthday look at their fathers with such pain and anger. They simply are taught to learn their place.

If people in the Wonderful Middle East where family is gold, acoording to Deepak's world-view, Why is it that the middle east is where you find more theft, piracy, and black market activity than all the rest of the world combined, no matter the time of year?

I await your response.

vertical,
raum

Ok i started this thread with 2 concepts ... materialism and conditioning.

A, when a kid is young and its christmas time; just taking an example of christmas since it is the most widely celebrated holiday, s/he get a present and then the next year and the next. Many times when ppl dont explain about it which is what happens most of the time, I'm not saying us as in us over here on this forum but us as in the majority of the world, what happens then?

They get conditioned to think and feel that its christmas and they are to recieve a present!! Conditioning over here happens slowly and over the years and that is the problem. Giving and recieving of presents are not what im saying is bad. Over the entire year many people would not even look twice towards charities but come time of the holiday season they feel compelled to donate. Why?

If they really want to donate they would keep donating through out the year, right? Or just pick a random day to donate if they have to. Why just on the holiday season?

Are we not conditioned to react certain way to certain times or certain events?

Raum I'll have to read your post again to answer your questions which i will later as soon as I get some more time on my hands.

Just on your last bit though, times are changing and the influence one country has on other countries are by far getting greater. They too are now seeing how great money can be and where it can lead them. And maybe it has started there way earlier but going down into the rural areas you will find that family is still of importance to them and many times the only reason they get into theft and piracy is to support their family.

And once they do get into it they realise that the money that they can get will provide them a means to relieve that pain and suffering that they have been through for their family they continue and soon enough it just turns into a greed of money and the orignal intentions are gone and never seen of again untill they experience something and are brought back to why they got into it. But most times it never does happen.

I guess there are a lot of issues related to that but I'll try to be more precise in what I'm trying to say later!

I don't see what the big fuss is about..

If I understand D right, he is saying most people who can afford a fair amount of gifts go out and buy a fair amount of gifts. I aint go lie, when I was 8-13, Christmas was merely a time when I got some stuff I wanted. I wasn't blatent, I just knew how to casually mention things in my sweet little tone so my parents could feel they could *bless* me. I thought I was playing them. Turns out it was the capitalistic evils doing the manipulating, on me and my folks. Anyway, most of my friends were/(are) the same way. I am middle class, so are they. Big corporations convince us we need stuff, and Christmas is a means where a lot of people satiate their *needs* and, as an added bonus, don't have to feel bad about it. Praise God for Xmas cheer! We have been conditioned to put waaaay to much of a materialistic focus on Xmas, just as we have been conditioned to drop our $1.05 change from buying a $198.98 Ipod in the Salvation Army bin and actually *feel good* about it.

I am pretty much with D on this.

And yea some NBA players do it for the image, some are actually extemely generous, kind people, and some are some of both. It's not our call to judge them as a group on that..

if the question is why do people donate more during the christmas season, the answer is simple. they are exposed to the cold, and are reminded of how lucky they are to have shelter. they prepare for a feast, and are reminded some will starve on christmas... they prepare to spend time with family, and are reminded how alone some people are. and for quite a few years, it has not been the case that christmas is a better time for giving,.. just its more in the open.

Deepak, the meaning of christmas is available on DVD, and we have all seen it anyways.

The meaning of Christmas is to get a red rider air rifle. I actually got one, and then I moved on.