ADN

no he didn't. he said that the only way out of the current crisis was for all parties to restore calm through a mutual cessation of hostilities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5161034.stm

an offer which Israel - again - rejected.


how about:
- Hamas still observes a cease-fire. how is that not peaceful to you?
- The least you can say is that this Israeli show of force now because of ONE Israeli soldier is exaggerated, no?
- WHAT precisely are they trying to achieve?
- Where - in the last 5 years - has Israel observed a cease-fire on its own?

Your right Brains, there hasn't hasn't been any real terrorist bombings in Israel in the last five years, the media has made it all up just to bring down Palestine.

I guess you want Israel to be wiped off the face of the Earth since you can careless about the truth, Hamas is and alway's will be a terrorist faction. But than again, you wouldn't know the truth even if it knocked your fucking head off.

Everyday you come here and make excuse's for the terrorist's claiming that it's alway's Israel's fault and Palestine is never to be blamed.



There are only two way's that this will end up, the completed destruction of Israel or Palestine. We all know there will never be peace in that region

your reply shows an accute lack of comprehension of what I come and say here everyday.

I have NEVER EVER said that there were no terrorist bombings in the last five years.

I have NEVER EVER said tat Israel shuld be wiped of the face of the Earth.

I have NEVER EVER said that Hamas does not have a terrorist past.

I have NEVER EVER put blame only on Israel.


I HAVE REPEATEDLY said that Hamas has observed a cease-fire for 1.5 years - which is fact and which you deny. You apparently would not recognize thruth even if it knocked your fucking head off.

And again:
- Hamas still observes a cease-fire. how is that not peaceful to you?
- The least you can say is that this Israeli show of force now because of ONE Israeli soldier is exaggerated, no?
- WHAT precisely are they trying to achieve?
- Where - in the last 5 years - has Israel observed a cease-fire on its own?

Why are you guys continuously avoiding to answer these questions?

Brains,

I answered all of your questions, and will here do so again,.. read them this time, ok?

QUOTE- Hamas still observes a cease-fire. how is that not peaceful to you?  
- The least you can say is that this Israeli show of force now because of ONE Israeli soldier is exaggerated, no?  
- WHAT precisely are they trying to achieve?  
- Where - in the last 5 years - has Israel observed a cease-fire on its own?

1. A hudna is not a "cease-fire". it is a Muslim strategy to conquer through conversion, so hardy any bloodshed is required. It is a proposal to not attack, and allows both sides to rally people to their sides. it also allows for the FREE PASSAGE into enemy territories. One thing, a Hudna is AGREED UPON BY BOTH PARTIES. Israel never agreed to the Hudna offered by HAMAS and Islamic Jihad. No Hudna exists, nor even has once existed between ANY MUSLIM GROUP AND ISRAEL. nor has a Hudna ever been offered to anyone whom the Muslims did not eventually try to overpower. It is simply NOT PEACE. IT IS A CAMPAIGN OF CONQUEST THAT MINIMALIZES RESISTANCE TO ISLAM.

BTW, both HAMAS and Islamic Jihad both broke the conditions of the Hudna a few months after offering it, before it was ever accepted. HAMAS did so with a bus bombing. August 19, 2003. 22 dead, dozens more hurt. but, even before that:

June 11, 2003: A suicide bombing aboard a bus in Jerusalem killed 16 persons and wounded at least 70, one of whom died later. HAMAS claimed that the attack was revenge for an Israeli helicopter attack on HAMAS leader Abdelaziz al-Rantisi in Gaza City the day before.

THERE's your cease fire. Israel said no,.. and HAMAS continued to attack Israel.

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2. No, I do not think their actions are extreme. Islamic Militants came into Israel, killed sentries, and took a military prisoner in an operation that had to have been long-term, and required man power and funding that could not easily be unnoticed. IF Palestine policed its own people, that would be one thing. Until then, I support Israel in trying to maintain order in the disputed lands, cause f^ck all if anyone else is! And I would not want to serve in a miltary that wrote off its prisoners as easily as most of you liberals do. I mean "he is just one soldier, right?" Do you people know what loyalty is?

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3. Simply put, what Israel is trying to achieve is what Palestine would have been doing themselves want if they really sought to live next to Israel peacefully. Someone has to go into these areas and confront these cesspools of hatred that are festering in the open wound that is Palestine. And it has been more than proven that no one in office in Palestine has a damn idea what they are doing. And they fillibuster about having control when they can't even arrest their own people. How many other countries have people fire missiles and not go to jail, especially when those missiles are aimed at countries you are trying to negotiate with. Palestine is impotent in both its choice of government, and the execution thereof.

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4. Do you even know what a "cease-fire" is? Here, let me break it down for you.

"Fire." this means you have confirmed a target, and got clearance to engage it.
"Hold Fire." this means the clearance to engage the target is revoked.

"Open Fire" this means you have clearance to engage a set of confirmed targets until hold fire is called, or it is destroyed.
"Hold Fire" this means the clearance to engage the targets is revoked.

"Fire At Will" this means confirm your own targets, and engage them with extreme prejudice. Heavy Fire situation.
"Cease Fire" this means "Fire At Will Status" is cancelled. Systematic Operations is status: prep for "Open Fire."

"Rest Fire" - switch your weapon to safety mode.

"Clear Fire" - unload your weapon.

(Cease Fire is a halt of combat weaponry to assess the situational status of the enemy, after no signs of resistance are evident. It is also traditionally called after the enemy has offered surrender, and by the enemy surrendering. The surrendering party commands "cease-fire" first.)

Cease Fire is not a "Truce," nor an "Impasse" nor a "Hudna," and it is certainly not applicable to this situation.

QUOTE(Brains)no he didn't. he said that the only way out of the current crisis was for all parties to restore calm through a mutual cessation of hostilities.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5161034.stm

an offer which Israel - again - rejected.


how about:
- Hamas still observes a cease-fire. how is that not peaceful to you?  
- The least you can say is that this Israeli show of force now because of ONE Israeli soldier is exaggerated, no?
- WHAT precisely are they trying to achieve?
- Where - in the last 5 years - has Israel observed a cease-fire on its own?

"The Hamas-led Palestinian government ordered its security forces Thursday to fight back against the Israelis who have been hammering Gaza with airstrikes and artillery since one of their soldiers was kidnapped last month."

I posted the article. I guess you didn't bother reading it...

BTW, excellent post, raum. 8)

kramer: while I can imagine someone has said that; I do hardly find any other references to it - the CNN Story was based on a Reuters report, I searched there and did not find any article about that Hamas guy saying what you posted. Amazing really. But again: I can really imagine someone Hamas or Palestinian saying these words.

But, I did ALSO read about Hamas calling for a cease-fire, an offer which Israel rejected, did you?


it leads me to raum's post: Cease Fire is not a "Truce,"

according to The American Heritage†™¢¢¬…¡¢‚¬Å¡‚® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, a cease-fire is a "Suspension of active hostilities; a truce." That is how I used it anyhow. I don't care about all the military blah-blah you wish to come up with. Instead of answering to my post, you decide to use weak, incorrect semantical rethoric to try to divert the discussion from the question which was asked.

That was: when did Israel suspend its active hostilities (cease-fire) in the last five years?


with your answer to (1), you show a lack of factual historical background to the conflict. I have repeatedly framed - and founded with articles - the cease-fire idea to the last 1.5 years. Your examples of Hamas terrorism date from before that - knowledge I have and have mentioned in that very same post.

However, you ARE correct that Hamas observed a cease-fire at that moment as well though. It was the time when Bush's roadmap was put into the spotlight (to divert attention from Iraq?!). Hamas agreed with that roadmap AND acted towards it for 1.5 months. ISRAEL repeatedly broke it with (1) construction of the wall, (2) authorizing additional housing for settlers and (3) extra-judicial killings. After (3) Hamas indeed gave up its cease-fire - after repeated warning towards Israel - and struck August 19th.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/ ... index.html


So Brains, it appears that Hamas is running the hostage situtation

Among the groups holding Shalit, 19, is the military wing of the radical Hamas movement that has day-to-day control of the Palestinian government. Shalit's captors have demanded that Israel release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, about 400 women and minors first among them, in exchange for Shalit.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00680.html

So Brains, is Hamas still not involved?

Hey Brains, here's a timeline to help you out

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01113.html

http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archi ... 00123.html


Notice, this is from a German Newspaper

http://www.geocities.com/activezionism/ ... blast.html