ADN

i believe that we all are pre-destined. free will is a figment (sp?) of our imagination. if God already knows what choice we're going to make, how is that a choice? God is all-knowing so he already sees the "choices" we are going to make. that doesn't mean we have a choice tho. from our point of view, it is a choice but it really isn't. we just perceive it as a choice.

to go back to what deeje first posted, God can be all-loving and all-powerful. He doesn't have to give us a choice to be all-loving. like ayhja was saying, love goes way past our understanding. i don't know what love all is besides that God is Love. but i still believe that God can be all-loving and all-powerful.

let's get this thread started again...

up

hmm...but what reward does heaven hold if we have absolutely no choice if we are to end up there or not?

He knows everything, so of course he knows if you are going to end up in heaven or not. But if he is all loving, then why doesnt EVERYONE go to heaven? If choice is an illusion, then why can we "choose" to reject God if he is all-loving?

Trashtalker, by saying we dont have a choice, you are saying God cannot be all loving, since wouldnt an all loving God want everyone to go to heaven to be with him?

I am afraid I am beginning to personify God as x3n mentioned earlier, becuase I think this issue needs to be explored and thought upon much more before we start making any sense..

Funny the less I know about things, the more I apply human characteristics where they have no place being brought up /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

the reward of heaven is being with God forever....for all of eternity.

yes he knows who is going to go to heaven or not, but that doesn't mean he's not all-loving. you are trying to describe God through human characteristics of love. just like your parents will always love you even if you do something bad...it's kind of the same thing, i think. even tho not everyone is going to heaven, God can still love us.

God can still be all-loving without giving us a choice. choice could be a bad thing if you think about it. with a choice, we can really screw up our lives. God could be all-loving by not giving us a choice. choices could really be a curse. that's what i think anyway...

the only way for us to describe God is through human characterisitics. we defineatly (sp) don't know enough to explain it any other way.

what you said about the less you know the more you go by human characteristics. that's common with everyone. b/c that's the only way we can describe him

hmm...but thats essentially like forcing someone to heaven, as some cultures force marriage...it is not based on true love as we know it..

iono, this is juss gonna go 'round in circles..im out..

but with my perspective of God, knowing some ppl are going to hell and not doing anything about it (if you have the power to) seems not that loving....

I would like to try and get this topic started again. I know that there are new members here now and I'd like to hear they're point of view.

This is also the issue I've been thinking about the most lately.

Any fresh opinions?

When you read the posts from the beginning though, trash, what more could you want..? What about the earlier points made don't you agree with, or aren't clear about, or what's inconclusive..?

if God know the future, it already exist for Him..

He knows whats gonna happen, cuz for Him it is already happened..

So how can we change that?

I think it may have something to do with something we havent done yet, could still shape the future that is the Now for God..iono..hard 2 explain..

Ok...this is what I believe so far. Tell me if you see any flaws in it. (preferrably anyone but LG because he doesn't know what he's talking about)

A) If an all-knowing God exists, then he knows precisely what THE future is. (He knows I'm going to cough in 10 seconds)

/cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" /> If God knows what THE future is, then that future WILL occur, unless God is mistaken. (I WILL cough in 10 seconds)

C) Because God cannot be mistaken, there is NO possibility that any other future, other than the one future which God knows, will happen. (There's NO possibility that I won't cough in 10 seconds)

D) THEREFORE, if God exists, there is only ONE future, which is THE future He knows. (I cough in 10 seconds)

Yes, but is your coughing in the future determined by God knowing it, or does God know it because you are going to do it?

See, ppl cant say "God knows the future, so we have no free will since God already knows what we will do", because even tho WE havent done them yet, we could have in GOD'S EYES, since the past present n future are all the same for Him, right? Let's say you choose to kill yourself. God already knew that was gonna happen. But did He know because there is no free will, or because IN HIS EYES, you have already done it?