ADN

QUOTEI don't buy the quantum physics ish
QUOTEThe day where quantum science proves that new particles can come into existence all on their own is the day I will seriously rethink this portion of my worldview...
I think we both know that's not true. Science , through observation and evidence, has given us solid arguments regarding how nature transforms, and goes through its many cycles. That "ish" simply doesn't work, because it's missing that magic ingredient. Not because it needs it, mind you, but because it's comforting. You will find dozens of journals dealing with both the cosmos and the subatomic. The everpresent flaw? it doesn't say "God does this funny little trick". Science readjusts and admits its limits. Religion, on the other hand, allows no room for error, and by its own nature, simply condemns science for its lack of a maker in its findings.

It is very true...If something could come from (absolutely) nothing, and that something provided a possibility to foster the universe we have today (even if the probability is very low) then it would only be logical for me to reevaluate...

Yes nature has many cycles, but the something 2 nothing element or vice versa is NOT (or at least has not been proven up to this point) part of it...Would it follow scientific/natural laws for everything in the universe to randomly disappear? No, I mean I can't prove that, but science itself says matter cannot be destroyed...In the same way, how could it just arise out of nothing? Mainstream science has admitted this limit, at least to some extent.

"God does this funny little trick."...Yea, basically...As childish as it sounds...Even though bringing the universe into existence isn't exactly a little trick lol...But I mean, science is mute for the most part on how the dice got here, even if it has a little (and i mean little) something to say regarding how the dice were rolled and the possibility of biological evolotion...So I just say some higher power is out there, and he did something that violated scientific laws to create the essential elements of the universe...

And I am just gonna ignore the religion sentence, it has no place in this discussion lol...Fuck religion, for right now at least...

bump...let's finish this up so we can move onto the design argument...

Then...move it right along, homez!

Contrary to your claims, there are quite a few theories on how it all got started, you say there was a consciousness behind it; I say there is no need for it. The whole concept of this being setting everything in motion and then sitting back to watch is akin to "that guy" from TV ads turning on the TV and simply sinking into his couch, jaw lazily hung open to watch and not do a damm thing more for a millenia. If he cared enough to build the stage, I just don't get this passive role soon after opening night. At this point, I prefer the god of the bible, at least he had no qualms about ordering people around, might have been cranky, but at least he was active, at least around those with delusions of grandeur, or complete zeroes.

Science is mute on how the dice got here because this non-interventionist "genius" designer does not warrant attention. This parasitic behaviour that neo-xians have is silly. You follow the bread crumb trail of science and simply claim "god did it" and sit on your ass until the next theory comes along and do the same there. Get together and call his neutral ass down and have a chat with his creation already. That way, science can take a back seat and refocus its efforts on figuring how they missed that spot.

see, xen, here is what I have as a difference of view.

no, god didn't turn on the tube and veg out.

You ever heard of the Rosicrucians? or more likely, The Papyrii of Ani.

The Book of the Dead The moral of the book of the dead is that the sum total of Mankind, in all his universe, is the product of the [SUPREME INTELLIGENCES]'s refinement through conditioning self analysis, which we can only interepret in THIS WORLD through our human filters.

I DO NOT BELIEVE MY SENSES. I USE THEM.
even before the matrix, so don't go there.

I have been PHYSICALLY DEAD four times. and I am still here. and I saw what I saw. And in a life of getting buffeted by the wings of the Angel of my Profession, I saw that each mode of consciousness is infinite, and a person can refine this to levels that redefine science, and there are means to control one's experience through application of focus; as your "prayer" works in your testimony. MY UNIVERSE OF EXPERIENCE has included things that simply can't be quantified without the application of SOME Intelligence as being the source of them, EVEN IF IT IS MY OWN, and some of them experienced by others, and some of those things are still not in SCIENCE BOOKS, and some things that weren't and I was told simply were (by proof of Science) not true ARE NOW.

When you experience true co-location (being in more than one specific place at once); the whole structure of education's approach to matter breaks down in a way that leave a big gap between science and religion, that makes way for your own discovery.

thus, by standardizing a conclusion that there need not be a intelligence in place behind the design of Your Universe, you pretend we all experience the same universe, and I simply do not believe that is true.

That is to me, the fundamental basis of the Scientific Method; it proves nothing, because no control to the experiments can be imposed without the will of the observer; thus for the theory to operate in Nature, it can ony be presumed that there is a conscious control. It was designed and still employed to see how a SPECIFIC occurance happens, and what controls need to be applied to it. But the interpenetration of all these controls, to bring about all these things SIMULTANEOUSLY, and in proportions that maximize the events so as to produce self-sustaining conflict, like molecular aggitation?

but the subtle irony is we will COLLECTIVELY never know; because the control of Science IS APPLIED BY INTELLIGENCE, so all conclusions of controlled experiments will ultimately point to its effect.

QUOTEeven before the matrix, so don't go there
Bit more credit, smartass...
QUOTEI have been PHYSICALLY DEAD four times. and I am still here. and I saw what I saw.
I'm sure there were witnesses to these events. Up to the point of your experiences during them. Everything is perception. Once you brought Kant and hit that point in our other thread, I saw no need for further discussion. Judging by how sure you are of these experiences, I can safely assume that you don't just mean the warm, fuzzy love tunnel everyone "goes through" when they have a near-death experience. The same tunnel is " traveled" by test pilots and astronauts as they are subjected to +G forces in centrifugal tests. The same signals the brain fires when it's shutting down due to lack of oxygen in the blood.
QUOTEand there are means to control one's experience through application of focus; as your "prayer" works in your testimony.
My "prayers" were obviously bullshit, my focus in achieving my selfish goals provided results, not divine help.
QUOTEMY UNIVERSE OF EXPERIENCE has included things that simply can't be quantified without the application of SOME Intelligence as being the source of them, EVEN IF IT IS MY OWN,
It's your intelligence that credits them, it always is.
QUOTE...thus, by standardizing a conclusion that there need not be a intelligence in place behind the design of Your Universe, you pretend we all experience the same universe, and I simply do not believe that is true.
You are very correct (shit...is very correct even correct?), and no we do not. As you mentioned, I can only speak of my universe. A universe forged out of my observations and what little understanding I have of it. The experiences you speak of have simply not been a focus of mine, thus keeping me at the mercy of my own logic.
QUOTEThat is to me, the fundamental basis of the Scientific Method; it proves nothing, because no control to the experiments can be imposed without the will of the observer; thus for the theory to operate in Nature, it can ony be presumed that there is a conscious control.
The scientific method does require the control of the observer, true, but only for specifics. Helps us to understand how everything works separately and hopefully understand its place in the bigger scenario. The self-sustaining conflict you speak of later on in your statement has gone through long periods of refinement, this, to me, is closer to trial and error than the careful and skilled work of an eternal being. Unless it is still tinkering away while we simultaneusly keep him occupied by fucking it up and throwing the balance.

There is a collective "knowledge" of this being, the details of what exactly is it, is where absolutely everyone disagrees. So no, collectively we will never know, so I suspect it stays there, as opinion, and not fact.

i was dropping that matrix thing in there, because for some people that was the closest they ever got to Gnosticism.

see, that is the thing. People presume GOD made the world, or NO GOD made the world.

and they rarely make room for the "Way of Return" of the Gnostic, the Taoist, or even the early Christian...

which states basically, Demiurge tried to do something, and the "accident" caused a change in consciousness, which left it is a divided state, and it is the adjustment of that process that caused the experience of universe to occur.

things are not as simple as they seem with religion.

In my experience, I died. Diagnosed DEAD for more than one time, and literally continued in a reality where I did not stay dead, and "was not dead long". Me experience was nothing like a tunnel, nor a pit, nor a confrontation with a form or image or voice.

IT WAS SIMPLY knowing everything about everything because I was everything, and the minute I thought "I", I was clouded with the distraction of existence again. I am talking about something different than astral projection or shaman journey outside of body... i mean something that puts you at the middle of the ferris wheel of life the universe and everything.

picture this.

You are walking down a road. A man stands in front of you with a knife. You do not resist. He draws back the blade, nods, and lunges forward. You feel steel hit and split flesh. you feel the pain in between your ribs, you feel the warmth of blood spill down your waist. you gasp and push away. you hear someone cry out and begin to fade, vision blurs. you feel the cold of the pavement under you,

(There is the sensation of being the ABSOLUTE CRITERIA between any one thing and everything else. The point of "seperation" of self and other. whether it be a line, a point, a film of a bubble, an iota of any given scale of time, length, heat, light, or any other thing. Whatever ever it is that keeps anyone thing from being anyother thing... that's the only way i can put it. the continuum a friend of mine calls it. not being BEYOND it, just it as BEING.
*** This is IMHO the "Nothing" that Intelligence emerged, for what ever reason. and as Intelligence seeks to Intelligence, it fabricates the phenomenon of Universe from itself.***

and, then the minute you try and define it or personalize it or express it inwardly, you establish, self... and are torn away from it into dreamlike state of being drugged by pain or pain killer and told "you are lucky to be alive again." "Again, you ask, and the doctor says "yeah, because for a minute there, we lost you."

(for me, it was not first a knife attack but multiple bee stings, when severely allergic)

as you go about your life, having been rescued death, you notice CHANGES. Like you wake up, and you were sleeping in class again and you look at what you are writing, "askari i akhanichu ab ialan iad piam ror iskorziz torhu." and everyone in class is STARING. hmm, you are in class. Were you just reciting ancient proto-hebraic linguistic patterns in second grade??? If so, why do you suspect you might not know it until 1992, when you randomly meet a person who studied this since their own childhood, and some discoveries in the 90's validate it? and how do you know that, when you don't know what the cafeteria is serving in 45 minutes. but enough of that, time to go to to the prinipal again for disrupting class.

I said things that were textbook insane, and if it were not proven, I would have stayed in ward 5 south in Oak Knoll, if it didn't turn out some things I said were undeniably true and undeniably unknown to me (positioning of a "nonexistent" submarine in a crucial point in Vietnam was a big one. I KNEW it wasn't there, made no sense for it to be there, but I said it, and ... that's all i can say about that.), and in some cases I doubted them . Instead, I went to a different kind of place for a different kind of testing... look up "Standford Telepathic Anomaly Research." I departed from that, due to the instability of the people who "channel messages for the world" that is not what I want to do.

I also ran some operations and drills. like triangulation. 'mazing stuff. Take, say, three ops who from a rapport. drop them in three points around a "general region" of a target EVEN ONE UNKNOWN PREVIOUSLY. by moving this perimeter inward, "closing the triangle", when the triangle no longer contains the target, the ops *feel it*. they expand the triangle, and close in one side (usually the "base," or the person who felt it "most.") when, he hits the point where he "feels" the target is no longer in the perimeter, all of them "feel it". so, he backs, up, and the other sides close in... eventually, you "minimize your scope" within an area you can manually search for the target, based on the risk of exposure and the acceptable resource to effect ratio.

by, the way, I have NEVER ONCE read a book on remote viewing, or any other psy-ops. but I have a manilla folder full of papers with govt. docket numbers on them... and my designation.

----- but I broke with that as well,.. I am not a spook, I am an information freedom kinda guy. but I also respect confidentiality and discretion. I also am not a plays well with others in general.

and besides, all these people are far too conclusive for me. People who say YES prematurely are as bad as people who say NO prematurely. i stay in the grey of the almighty Probability... and thus remain my biggest skeptic and my most credible enthusiast. I could wish nothing more for any other.

There is no me,
Ch

Ahhhh...

Deeper and infinately more interesting than just talking god, in my opinion. Yes, I'm a big fan of the concept of a universal constant, absolutely. As far as science has come, it seems unable and unlikely to dismiss the very real matter of matter. In fact, it has embraced it. There is a unifying constant, particles within particles and in between them, matter. The proportions change, but the essential ingredients are there. I personally subscribe to the idea that given these circumstances, it follows that we would connect, it's probably inevitable, save for the very distracting concept of awareness of self.

The unfortunate short time I spent meditating only solidified this idea, and simultaneously and very tenderly cleared away the cloud of thick smoke that was religion, and I was never able to breath in that putrid environment again. Nothing I heard in church from then on, called for a reaction, except for a dismissive smile.

The next step for me was reorganizing my thoughts on what exactly "god" was, that one took a little longer. The meditation on the god dilemma eventually led me to my answer which was in plain view of everyone. Everyone was right, and no one was. God wasn't love, god wasn't will, and god wasn't destiny and it wasn't light. God wasn't there. We were and everything was. My theory? that universal constant, that unifying essence was wrongly given a purpose, a title, a seat of power and a thousand names, because we just cannot STAND to feel alone. It was made a superman when it wasn't even an it.

QUOTE(x3n @ Nov 15 2006, 10:49 PM) Ahhhh...

Deeper and infinately more interesting than just talking god, in my opinion.

NOW we seem to be getting in the ballpark of what I have been talking about.

QUOTEMy theory? that universal constant, that unifying essence was wrongly given a purpose, a title, a seat of power and a thousand names, because we just cannot STAND to feel alone. It was made a superman when it wasn't even an it.

I personally am also full of ideas about this... including the Oracle model, where a person is somehow brought in contact with that constant, and for as long as they are not "dragged back" by a sense of self, that constant can act through the body. there are gradations of contact with it through practice or some kind of conditioning intentional or otherwise I can't say consistently, but it is achievable through a person in a specific state.... and to me that is the basis of religion that is "Messiah" and in most cases it is no longer sought as a goal but teated as an exclusive event.

Well shit, I miss a few days and I have no idea what's going on...(I have read everything tho lol)

I would like x to explain the "nothing to something" theory he believes in if it isn't too much trouble...Just because I have yet to hear a credible one...