ADN

As far as being in Iraq. I feel America should take care of its own shit first, and fluch it right. But we are the "stepfather" of the Middle East, and we keep having to pull off our belt, even though this ain't our son. Mainly because his mom ain't doing nothing. No, I feel we should not have to be there right now. I actually feel that we should have finished the invasion back in the nineties, and it was revealed that Saddam Hussein was commiting atrocities against his own people and stockpiling weapons for large scale attacks of the United Arab Emirates, while were on the front lines for Kuwait. Back in that little thing called Desert Storm, when Stormin Norman was saying the reason we can't get this done right is because America doesn't consider casualties a neccesary part of war. I loved that man,.. would vote for him in a heart beat. Before Hussein went into hiding, and we could have rolled in like nobody's business. Set up shop and ery'ting.

Hussein was not the problem, control in Iraq was. In fact, much of the resistance we are meeting wit now is born of that short-lived campaign.

America's problem is it doesn't finish what it starts. Not since WWII.

vertical,
raum

Well, I'm not really questioning your military training, or your knowledge of the attack...I'm actually COUNTING on it, to get a clear[er] view. I can't really take offense at the whole conspiracy theory diatribe, I rather be wrong than not ask.
Again, my questions remain the same...judging from the precision of the hit, would you say the pilot was not one of the alleged hijackers, but maybe somebody forced to maneuver the craft?.
The other one: I understand the base of the wings (where they meet the main body of the craft) is pretty strong (not the strongest?) but how weak is the tail? not strong enough to resist the strike and/or heat of the explotion?

I think you're dead right on that account. It would have put a lot of this insurrection to rest back then (though we would probably still have some minor problems, but nothing like now).

the precision of the hit could be accomplished by a child, if he has good reflexes. its alot like a video game... "How hard is it? Well that depends on how good you are!"

Only one pilot missed his mark... supposedly - Flight 93, and I maintain that the guy flying the plane was not the intended pilot, who was denied access on the plane. They had to improvise, and had to decide among themselves who was best at flying the plane. The remarks from the flight school the guy went to were that he was quite good, despite their spidey sense were going off like a fireworks show and the warning signs they got from him.

I stand by that it doesn't take that much training to fly a craft with a little training and a lot of talent into the Pentagon and pain and simple, the building is full of vital areas, so hitting a place that is important is easy,.. but -

Especially for that hit, which reflects a lack of skill as I believe he missed his target, but not by much. I bet it is easier than you think to hit a building with a plane.

My idea, is that the pilot of Flight 77 did not hit his intended target WHERE he was supposed to. I propose he hit the Pentagon, but not the point where he was supposed to. I can't go much into the topic, but if he was off a few degrees on his descent from crippling our ability to identify and mobilize military force in the Middle East. He was vitally close to a communications center, where many of the computers in the pentagon are that transmit data to ComLogGru 1 (and from there to the entire bulk of Pacific Naval fleets and battle groups). It is from there that orders are transmitted and delegated to the Marines in those commands serving in the Middle East. If he would have hit that, our commands overseas would still be in chaos, and out of supplies in foreign countries.

I think he missed his target. That is the biggest cause for me to suspect it was not a set-up or national conspiracy. The evidence is in him hitting the pole, which shows he was coming in too low. If he would have been as little as 23 degrees on the mark, he would have effectively made a stirke that could have killed every soldier on the ground in the Middle East.

THIS is why the pentagon was blocked off immediately.

As far as the integrity of the plane. It is impossible to do a ballistics test with this, unless you got a boeing 757 I can fly into a firing mold, and examine the impact. :-s Though 9 different versions of this plane exist, it is safe to sayit was one of these versions, because only one has a "First class" section. and anyways. A mock-up of the 727 created in 1978, rolled out in 1982. It was a soundly built craft, with an awesome standard of quality and reliability. The 757 is huge, and weighs a lot, but comparitively, it is really light. It has fuel efficincy by sacrificing wing integrity "Hollow pre-wings", and aluminum engine stabalizing components. The inside of the hollow pre-wings is pressurized, as is the cabin.

For our purposes, it is effectively a 53 meter long 38 m hollow tip bullet with 17-19 kp of thrust with two hollow points holding the wings on. To give you an idea, it is like a bullet "over 5,000 times the size of a Glock 9 bullet with fins that detach like a missiles on point of impact. A glock can already chip concrete. What is 10,000 times the value of "chip." I estimate that is about what the Pentagon attack was, yah? This , thus the impact of the plane blows out the back of the wall (hollow-tip, ya know?).

AND

It causes scatter damage from the schrapnel of the plane (like the deadly shredder, or "cop-killer" rounds), and this is followed by the explosion of the fuel (a solid based jet fuel - "JP5"), stored in the fuselage in the belly of the trunk.

This makes the jet strike (at even 19 kp thrust) equivalent to a shot with a HEAP round (HEAP - High Explosive Armor Piercing) from a Glock to scale in the hand of a man about 6'000 feet tall. At less than 15 paces at about mach speed (.08 mach being the cruising speed for a 757).

What building ain't he gonna be able to put a dent in?

With the trunk of the 757, it came from the 727. It is pretty standard fare. The wings hold two prat and whitney rolls royce engines, and has a span of 38 meters, or so. The wing aspect ratio is 7.82, which is pretty standard for commercial craft.

The wings are basically, Cantilever "low-wings"; *all-metal* construction; 5 spoilers +1 ground; double slit flaps, hollow pre-wings with five sections about the whole span.

The engines are actually too heavy for the wings, but meet FAA requirements. The wings are where they remove the weight to make the plane more efficient. Also, They use titanium riviets to hold the hollow aluminum pre-wings together. This is how they can say "they have reinforced titanium in the pre-wing structures. These hold the bulk of the wings onto the trunk.

The tail unit has a similar construction.

For years, this was called the "safest plane in the world" with no accidents leading to fatalitied until the mid-nineties.

Point of Impact -

The cockpit would be plowed into the building, and the force of the 300 miles per hour would keep the air from "escaping" from the glass windows of the cockpit, the pilot and all people in the front of the plane would die on impact. The impact, so close to the corner would cause the masonite (stone and brick) of the wall to powderize like only a 300 mph hammer could. This would drive the jet into the building, ripping into the steel supports, which would tear into the trunk of the jet as the tail began to scrunch up. The wings would fold counterclockwise and back (based on the runners' positions to make the plane descend) as the tail was crammed into the hole, crushing the inside of the pressurized compartments of the hollow pre-wings, which would explode ripping them off, destroy the engines, and rip open the fuselage on the belly of the plane. leading to the explosion of the passenger compartments. These explosions (five in each wing) would run the length of the main passenger compartment, and rupture the pressure from the sides, causing the first major explosion, which would be conical in shape and focused on the interior point, where the first pressure breach was caused. This is called "deep impact" and is the science behind armor piercing rounds. The rich oxygen would cause a "primed" explosion that would ignite the approximately 40+ kg of fuel left in the plane, based on leaving the Dulles airport with a fuel tank, to get to L.A.X. This explosion would incinerate most of the plane, which is still traveling at .03 mach or higher.

The problem is the plane hit the wall and basically, balled up and exploded as it was ripped apart by penetrating the wall... not blew out the bak of the hole, or hit a point that it could not penetrate like people expect. A dart was thrown, became a spitball, and explode from the pressure of the misshaping.

The reason it didnt penetrate further is there was not enough of the plane left to penetrate. Once the mass of a missile is gone after the explosion it has nothing but its initial velocity and its density. Neither are too high. It is the spreading of the internal damage and the explosive payload that are its crucial deadly components. Nothing much is ever left from a missile. NEVER THE FINS.

I don't want to get technical about what happened inside the plane, but I can... and it wouldn't be for the weak.

Suffice to say, I bet they pulled out a pretty small blown-out "hunk" of charred metal a little larger than a volkswagon.and there wasn't much else they could identify.

vertical,
raum

No, no need to describe the effects on flesh inside the actual plane...according to those working on the building, the biggest piece of wreckage was about the size of a fridge, so I tend to think that flesh and bone might have been "tatooed"into the structure.
QUOTE
It is indicative of a precision strike by a plane. With a plane full of Aerospace professionals working with Boeing, it is likely that at least one of them would be able to control the descent.  
That's why you got me wondering about the spot itself, I kept thinking that someone might have been forced to execute "the stunt".

Any idea what the changes were in that whole area?, from what I've read, the area of impact had been remodeled and a few offices were empty (assuming THAT'S even true).

When you mentioned the first major explotion being conical, where you referring to the explotion inside the building? (from nose to back), the pics do seem to suggest the inner ring of the building as having dealt with whatever was left of the plane. The damage getting progressively smaller further in.
lol, I promise I'll stop asking you about this soon, but if you keep bringing interesting shit up...

I was more talking about the absurd idea people had it was a missile painted to look like a plane, or some shit. "Hence, the statement that is it indicative of of precision strike with a plane." I chatted with a guy who had this opinion, and have found it to be pretty common. some web site about it or something.

another common idea was it was an Amercian operative flying the plane.

don't get me started on the absurdity of this, to those who have evidence that it was so, I posit that it was someone recovering the plane from the terrorist... hence the statement "With a plane full of Aerospace professionals working with Boeing, it is likely that at least one of them would be able to control the descent."

The reason is simple, I rarely make paragraphs until the end of my writing spasms, and sometimes make mistakes. It was two seperate statements, meant to dispute two seperate "theories."

sorry for the confusion.

As far as what is in the Pentagon, I do not have all of that information, and can not discuss much of what I have, and being that I got out in '97, it is likely it is no longer valid.

I just know alot about ComLogGru (Command Logistics Group), because I went to A-School for it.

Can you believe I was supposed to be an intelligence operative, and I dropped out of the program. Instead, I volunteered for physical duty, Gunners mate on a ammo cargo ship bound for the Gulf. I learned about intelligence, and trust me, it is not organized enough to coordinate a clandestine operation in its own borders of this scale.

Think 8th graders in office jobs.

My goal was to get fleet experience, and try to get as close to the field as possible, and use that as an officer on embassy duty. I didn't know that once I went fleet, my chances of advancing were nil.

So, they lost one of the greatest strategists they could have hoped for... according to their own damn tests. and I try to eek out a existence in civilian life, when my ideals are too high for the common society, and my plans demand resources I am ill-equipped to accumulate.

Sometimes, when I pop my neck and let the inner forces settle, I find I still have it on the backburner that the reason they won't give me my money for college, is they are afraid of what I would do with influence and money.

I went UA (unauthorized absent) in Berkley for a minute (that ended up I forgot I was supposed to be on duty that weekend, when i was chilling at a girlfriend's pad. In the military, missing work, is grounds for jail, not getting fired.)

When I came back to Alameda, The whole pier was on lockdown, so I snuck past them all, went up the aft mooring line, and went and smoked a cigarette. Saw my chief there, and he laughed... He was a nut. nuff said.

Then I went and turned myself in, and the whole went off lockdown.

My designations, according to my records:

Third Division - Weapons - Assistant Armorer Explosive ordinance disposal - Ammunition Inventory Transfer and Movement "GU" and "GM" designations (i.e. Guns and Missiles) - Visit Board Search and Seize Team - Zodiac gunner, Sniper/Stinger/running marksman (basically, I am still 70+% accurate at a full run with a handgun, and 50+ with a automatic rifle/ i can also fire effectively while wave jumping in a small-boat.) - Security Alert Team Trainer - Backup Alert Force Leader - Safety Team - HazMat Disposal. Nozzleman Damage Control Team Hold Two. 3 Naval Accomodations - 2 Extraordinary service medals. Operation Desert Shield ribbon - 2 National Defense ribbons - 1 Taiwan Exposition Accomodation. 1 - Kuwait Defense ribbon.

proved to the world I ain't no punk... even when I didn't have nothing to prove. Remember I did this to save the environment. WHICH WE DID.

Now for the bad:

four captain's masts - Destruction of Government property/ Unauthorized Absence/ Insubordination during security emergency AND failure to pay personal debts (so they take the money right from your checks, which they had quit paying me.)/ Physical assault and abusive behavior to Marine personnel.

three uncounted stays of Unauthorized absence. no trial. 75 days restriction, each count.

results: two stays maximum security navy Brig Treasure Island - rationed to bread and water.

four counts 75 days restriction. two extense thirty days restriction for insubordination.

Courtmartial - Treason and Unautorized Absence. (this would take a book to explain. I left for 101 days, and was doing stuff that got me in a shit load of trouble, and ended in the EPA standards being met fleet wide, and got me an extraordinary service accomodation.)

- I went to Pearl Harbor Brig - Three days bread and water - 10 days Gen Pop - with transfer to fort Lewis underway. Then ComLogGru 1 shows up, and demands my release, in exchange for me not spilling certain beans for 10 years... That was in October of 1995. I was due to be released, and then all shit goes over seas, and I get out in 1997.

Those last few months were enough for my Gun Boss and Weapons officer to have my division salute me as I am leaving my ship as a lifetime salt with only 3 years and 7 months in. I can't talk about them for 5 years (by the year 2002), and I breathe not a word until 2003, and still don't advertise that part of my past in person or online lightly.

vertical,
raum

This is why threads aren't supposed to die:

[video width=320 height=240:d824ab6413]http://hiroshi.gogar.com/CameraPlanetMissileFlash.wmv[/video:d824ab6413]

Here's a direct link for your media player:
http://hiroshi.gogar.com/CameraPlanetMissileFlash.wmv

Shit guys, the vid is GONE now, and I have nary a trace of it in my cache...I'll see if I can get my hands on it, but it was some VER interesting footage of the tower attacks...

You better not be talking about the spot they used for the Sci-Fi channel.

Give me one reason why the FBI would confiscate every video feed from the surrounding buildings.... Tell me why there isn't a single eye witness who can say they seen the plane hit the Pentagon. Tell me why a plane of that size and at that speed and altitude didn't cause any damage to the cars traveling underneath it as it flew over a major highway, 395.

If anyone has lived or worked in this area they will tell you that the Pentagon is a facade for the buildings and the area around it. The Pentagon is only used for one use and one use only, implementation of policy, nothing more.

I don't care what battles you have been in or who fired the first shot at Kennedy, but the Pentagon was not hit by an airplane. There are always weapons in the developmental phase that need to be tested just like they need to be sold. Uncle Sam didn't fire that weapon but "THEY" did cover it up.

The plane that went down in PA was shot down simply because NO ONE WILL EVER TAKE OUT THE WHITE HOUSE from home or abroad. Read the 911 report... Hell that report even conflicts with itself....

I HAVE YET TO SEE A PLANE GET SUCKED IN BY A FUCKING WALL!!!!!!!!

I HAVE YET TO SEE A BLACK BOX RECORDER FOUND FROM THAT PLANE!!!!! but they can get that shit from the bottom of the ocean when they go down. They can collect all the pieces from a space ship that blew up over several states but they cant find the black box in a 400 yard radius.......????

I played a role in that recovery operation from the Pentagon so I know for a fact what can, will and wont be done.....

JUST TELL ME HOW A WALL CAN MAKE A PLANE DISAPPEAR.....