Blood Money

#41

What do you have a problem with? If you don't understand something, call me on it, instead of giving me this vague idea of how my perceptions are fucked up.

Show me the contradiction...

(1) Drugs, like fast food, are generally bad for society. They aren't healthy physically, they are highly addictive, etc. My point is, it is hard to argue that drugs are helping society more than they are hurting it.

(2) Selling drugs, even if you are using the money to build an army of Mother Teresa clones, is hurting society. You are merely providing a means for one life to suffer in order that another may prosper

(3) The whole "donation" deal is ethically impure. There are other noble ways to get money (this guy could work a kick ass fruit stand {pushing it, but you get my point...}) and stack a right on top of another right by using the money for society's benefit. Instead, he is righting a wrong.

How is that jaded?

#42

See, that's the thing...We need not go any further than your first point...You seem to be completely unaware of any kind of social dynamic what so ever...

You compare drugs to fast food...Pretty good analogy, only you seem to not even realize what you're saying...You say that drugs aren't helping people, but every drug has its roots in medicine, even the bad ones...The problem is that they are abused, and that is no fault of a drug dealer any more than a McDonald's manager...

For instance, I take an over the counter allergy medicine that I now have to show a driver's license to get because people use what is in them to get high or whatever...

Dude as long is there is a need for something, there will always be a supplier...You highlight drugs because many of them are illegal by gov't standards, but they aren't illegal cause they are "bad"...What you say about drugs and drug dealers is about as true as you could say for siggs, alcohol, video games, pussy and everthing inbetween...

I'm saying jaded, because if your mind can't already make those connections, the convo is pointless...Would you be perfectly fine if po-po's came and kicked down your door, arrested you and fined you 25K because you couldn't produce a receipt that showed you paid for that copy of flash you got..?

What is the difference between someone providing a download for a person on a forum like this one, and someone making it less complicated for you to smoke a joint..? And in your mind, you can justify weed and throw out another contradiction, but I know people that function doing hardcore drugs...I know a man that smokes crack, he dresses up, puts on clothes and goes to work like everyone else...And I know people that do coke, and you do too...You've probably seen too many after school specials and not enough of the real world to understand drugs and the effects they have on people...Or something...

#43

The difference is flash is a good thing, and drugs are a bad thing. Flash is an educational tool, drugs are a unhealthy treat. I am not justifying the illegal stuff I have, but you can't put drugs and programs in the same category here...

Obviously the problem is that drugs are abused. Like I said earlier, I don't blame the dealer. But he could still make a difference. You say there will always be supply...Well, not if nobody dealt drugs.

I disagree with the idea that drugs aren't "bad." You know me, I don't let what the gov't says influence my opinion about right and wrong. Some people can use responsibly, but most can't. Drug addiction is a big problem. In theory, drugs aren't bad, but let's be honest...Do you really think drugs have helped the disciplined population more than they have hurt the undisciplined? It is because of this that I say drugs are bad, generally. And yea, I feel the same way about siggs and that other stuff you mentioned. If a tobacco store was funding education, I would feel the exact same way I do now.

Alright, this post has been a little sloppy and disorganized, so I am going to try to pinpoint our disagreement for the sake of future posts:

You don't think dealers should stop dealing just because people lack judgment; especially when the gov't or some other source of supply will arise. A drug dealer is no different a tanning booth salon owner, as both provide an unhealthy indulgence, and since noone would care if a *legal* "treat" supplier was offering money for education (they'd support it even) we should give this dealer a break?

I think even though dealers aren't the problem, they can help stop the problem. Some other source may/will arise, but hey, you shouldn't kill someone just because if you don't somebody else will. As for the dealer/salon owner part, I agree with that completely.

How close am I?

#44

We go to the wayside almost immediately...

The difference is flash is a good thing, and drugs are a bad thing.

1. You can't make that call...
2. This is related to perspective...

This is not good thinking on so many levels, let alone a judgmental one...You are in no position to say what is right, and what is wrong, especially since the people at Macromedia/Adobe could and probably do disagree with you...

How come it doesn't appear that way to you..? You obtained something immorally...Essentially, you stole it...But...You want to justify it and say its right because you're using it for education, but damn, isn't that beside the point..? How come a drug dealer is a detriment to society and you're not..? Where and how do you differ..?

#45

Does Macromedia Flash destroy lives?

Man, this is kind of ridiculous...Do you really think Macromedia flash is on the same level as cocaine?

Let's plug in Flash in the place of drugs. Let's say a guy uses a stolen copy of Flash to make a killer website that accepts donations for a college fund, and the site is wildly successful.

Yea sure the CEO of Macromedia might lose a few cents, but this is nothing compared to the detrimental effect on society caused by fueling a noble charity with a drug operation.

(Keep in mind I never said (and even admitted) that my use of Flash did not justify the method by which I attained it.)

Also-

Flash - used for self-expression through graphic design, enhances our web experience, provides employment opportunities, etc.

Drugs - provide a temporary/illusory sense of fulfillment, are (how they are used by most) not healthy, physically or mentally, are highly addictive, are linked with many cases of violence, etc.

Yea sure, not too many things in the world are always good or always bad. But if I had to label Flash and drugs one or the other, I'd have a hard time saying flash is the devil and that drugs stand tall with a crown of thorns.

#46

[quote name='Aemeth' date='Feb 2 2007, 05:29 AM' post='167053']
Does Macromedia Flash destroy lives?

Man, this is kind of ridiculous...Do you really think Macromedia flash is on the same level as cocaine?
[quote]

Software piracy accounted for 34 billion dollars in losses worldwide in the year 2005.

certainly not as big as the cocaine market, but I know people who lost GOOD jobs because sales declined as more people used pirated copies of software. GOOD people you probably would never guess would be impacted. Over 12,000 people in California alone lost jobs in the last three years due to losses incurred by software piracy. Many of them I knew.

[quote]
Let's plug in Flash in the place of drugs. Let's say a guy uses a stolen copy of Flash to make a killer website that accepts donations for a college fund, and the site is wildly successful.

Yea sure the CEO of Macromedia might lose a few cents, but this is nothing compared to the detrimental effect on society caused by fueling a noble charity with a drug operation.
[/quote]

There was a man, a good friend of mine who lost his job from people thinking exactly like that. His writings are still used to train ministers worldwide. He was the kind of person I look at in amazement of how much they know. He died of stress related heart attacks later, as his life fell apart from the lack of that good job.

My mentor who worked for Adobe thanks you for not paying for your copy of photoshop. At least he is back in his right head again.

[quote](Keep in mind I never said (and even admitted) that my use of Flash did not justify the method by which I attained it.)

Also-

Flash - used for self-expression through graphic design, enhances our web experience, provides employment opportunities, etc.[/quote]

Yes, and it is a powerful tool devolped by dedicated people who finally built their efforts into a successful operation that became their primary business, and has excellent support pipeline from a company that really cared. But all that will change now that they were sold to Adobe due to missing financial goals...

and that is why it costs so much.

Do you essentially believe stealing is worse than dealing?

[quote]

Drugs - provide a temporary/illusory sense of fulfillment, are (how they are used by most) not healthy, physically or mentally, are highly addictive, are linked with many cases of violence, etc.

Yea sure, not too many things in the world are always good or always bad. But if I had to label Flash and drugs one or the other, I'd have a hard time saying flash is the devil and that drugs stand tall with a crown of thorns.
[/quote]

What you may not realize is bigger drug operations might be the closest you have to regulation of a product. Thousands of people a year die from not getting a quality of drugs. Look at how many lives the Needle exchange program saves, or is that a redeemable practice because tax dollars pay for it instead of the users themselves?

We are not debating IF abuse of drugs is ruining lives, we are debating if you would accept a bound and delivered college fund from a man who ALLEGEDLY has some money made through drug marketing.

Biggest cause of death in America: Heat Disease.
Biggest cause of Heart Disease: Poor diet.
Biggest cause of poor diet: Fast food.

Does that make the Ronald McDonald house and the McD college fund as bloody as this money?

I am simply saying that if you decide not to take his college fund, fine. But for damn sure don't judge him as any less capable of legitimately giving a kid a chance at free education.

Now, I have to go to do my volunteer work; where today my evil capitalist power generation and marketing company is renovating the second floor of a at risk youth shelter in Trenton, so it can be made into a highschool and the kids can go to school there with an in residency staff, instead of trying to get killed or molested in public school.

#47

QUOTE("Aemeth")Man, this is kind of ridiculous...

NO DOUBT...

And still I'm back 3 or 4 posts ago with my reasoning...

The stuff you say, maybe you're writing in a hurry or something, directly contradicts itself and any point you try to make...But there has to be another reason why you keep writing this way...

#48

It doesn't contradict...

See, this converstation is turning into one measuring if my copy of flash is as bad as this dude selling drugs. In the premise alone, my point is made.

And to raum, yea I consider all the McBullshit money to be a lot more bloody than this!

Raum, A, and anyone else...If your kid comes up to you and says "daddy I wanna be a drug dealer for a living and donate my money to a good cause!", would you support this decision?

#49

QUOTE(Aemeth @ Feb 2 2007, 10:13 PM) It doesn't contradict...

See, this converstation is turning into one measuring if my copy of flash is as bad as this dude selling drugs. In the premise alone, my point is made.

And to raum, yea I consider all the McBullshit money to be a lot more bloody than this!

Raum, A, and anyone else...If your kid comes up to you and says "daddy I wanna be a drug dealer for a living and donate my money to a good cause!", would you support this decision?

It doesn't matter if it contradicts: If you feel this strong about it, you aren't thinking.

Here is the premise: you guys started in on this from a biblical level, and I still maintain, especially in the biblical sense:

Theft is a much larger no-no than production and distribution of something that in modern times specific societies and governments consider illegal substances because they cannot be controlled. Heroin used to be legal. Would this man's actions have been "wrong" then? Was coca-cola "wrong" when it had cocaine in it? The Catholic church used to fumigate the Mass Assembly with Hemp, Fankencense, and Myrhh. At that time, no one would have considered it a second thought. Ergot was fed to the Irish to create a belief in Catholicism.

The "illegality" of "drugs" is a far newer topic in an ethic consciousness than theft.

Theft on the other hand, was still theft and you would be hanged for stealing two thousand five hundred dollars. And most of the really dirty stuff that gets associated with dealing drugs is to prevent or commit theft.

My point is not what is worse, your actions or his; rather I am trying to simply say that both actions have implications you may not be aware of, good or bad, and your judging this person by "a label" says nothing of them as a whole. I don't know the man, I am not going to judge him. You are going simply off of "some unknown people's" allegations that he is a drug dealer. Hell, it could have been some old women from the church who came up with the whole thing saying "You know that man ain't got that kind of money without being crooked." For all we know this guy was dealing to make his degree happen, and made his funds with sound investments. Or maybe "he was a drug dealer" in as much as he was a man with a CIA connection that was helping fund the cocaine wars in Nicaragua.

Maybe alot of things>

What I do know is this is MY America, and a man is innocent until proven guilty. And a man who can legitimately and legally set up a college fund was certainly investigated before his fund was accpeted by the University Standards and Ethics. I guarantee the Securities Exchange Commission also did their background on him, so he's got to have a legitimate estate or earnings to validate the funding. Now how he got the money to invest to get the kind of money to set up a college fund is another thing alltogether, and not really the issue. And ANY opportunity to make a better life for a kid who can is an opportunity for a kid to get out of a situation where he feels compelled to be a product of his disparaged environment as his only sign of success. This money has to be more or less as legit than any other route, or his application to start the college fund would have been denied.

And as for whether I think it is right or wrong, I think essentially it is corrupt to charge people for knowlege they need to live according to the precepts of our constitution as though it is a material good, and not have it funded by our tax dollars or completely free.

That is why, even now, as a professional and a scholar, I find myself at odds with getting a college education. Even though I know I must. Even worse, I must express opinions that are not my own and regurgitate events I know not to be true just because a teachers approval will increase my income potential. It is the worst of dilemmas.

I am just trying to say you need to add some flexibility to your simple view of right and wrong, or you are simnply NOT thinking for yourself. Everyone hurts someone, no matter what they do; especially if they become successful and rich. That is why there must be a business ethic that includes a restitution; a redemming contributional social conscience that says "for all the bad I unintentially do, I do this act of good." Any good company has one in place, and it promoted the TRUE spirit of altruism.

#50

C'mon raum, do you really think I am that naive?

You think that I am calling this guy a horrible person just because he is a "drug dealer"....?

Look, I think it is quite clear that we do not know for sure where the money is coming from. The only point I ever tried to make was this:

donating proceeds to a noble cause does not justify entirely using a vice to aquire the means that are donated

Do we agree with this or not?