ADN

QUOTE
But for now, from your POV, the only universal right and wrong is that they dont exist. Is that right or wrong? Apparently, it can vary, but that seems to contradict your arguement


U mind Elaborating on that point how do we seem to be contradicting our POV of no universal right and wrong ............(suggest that u take a dictionary and find the meaning of the word universal ) ............. nd do remember standards and jus right and wrongs are different from universal rights and wrongs .................... so u shud explain ur stand further on how universal rights and wrongs exist ??

I think what AYHJA was refering to, regarding Jesus( and it seemed clear as day to me), was that dying and suffering, isn't necessarily "a gift" for the world.
If that had been his sole purpose, or at the very least...his most important contribution...I would think the "good book" would have been a more detailed description a la "Passion Of The Christ", of his last day. I realize the popular belief is that there is no greater sacrifice than to give your life for your fellow men. Strictly, from a romantic perspective, it sounds nice, but it's hardly worth it, if that's not what humankind needs.
"Christianity" tells us that he "died for our sins", meaning they were absolved?, forever? or there was a time limit, like a loan deferment?. Because I feel kats struggling with this idea of how they measure up in the eyes of their god...and I'm thinkin, if JC came down and took on the burden of human "sin"...globally, I assume...then, what's this drama all about? slate's clean, right?. C'mon kids, the phrase "Jesus said..."(and I KNOW this is in the bible, so it's not like I'm asking you to even reason, or maybe just a teeeeeeensy bit), is all over the place in the New Testament. Why do you think that is?.

The slate is clean though. Because JC came and died and did wipe the slate clean, we could do anything we wanted in theory. The Bible does say though that if you do something that you know is wrong that it's sin, but you still could do it. Jesus has already paid the price. But when you think about the magnitude of the sacrifice, you wouldn't want to do that. When you accept Jesus's gift, you wouldn't want to abuse that.

QUOTE(DeEje)I will go in depth more later on my reasoning about right and wrong, I thought people knew but apparently not as much as I thought..

But for now, from your POV, the only universal right and wrong is that they dont exist. Is that right or wrong? Apparently, it can vary, but that seems to contradict your arguement..

I have to date, about two truths which I don't think can be proven wrong by anybody...I didn't create them, I just thought about them...Others have reseached it...There may be more absolute and universal truths, but these are the two that concern me the most...

1...The only constant is change...
2...Energy cannot be created or destroyed...

Anything else, I file under some form of relativity, whether it be physical or psychological...Right or Wrong, comes under that...Why..? Because no shade of right or wrong can be universally consistent, constant, or proven...Would you like to test this..?

A man travelling home from working late, and is a bit sleepy, accidentally runs over and kills a person that ran in the street to grab a pack of siggs he dropped...

Is that something that is right, or wrong..? Is that murder..? Technically yes...Was it intentional..? Was the guy wrong for working late and trying to drive home..? Was the guy wrong for running out into the street..?

Hopefully, you get my point...Universal right or wrong says one thing, or bust...According to you and trash, the guy that ran the other guy down is going to the gallows Fa Sho...God said, "Thou shall not murder," right..?

Right...

God is absolute, granted?

Where yall are coming from on the universal standpoint, I guess we have slightly different concepts of the term..

For me, universal = absolute..

I dont think a universal God could create a relative world, look at the laws of nature, etc..

I do believe in The Fall, and I think this has to do with our lost perception of Truth..

But I think absolute truth does exist..

Basically what I am saying is even if God judges the heart/motives solely, every time, that ABSOLUTE truth would be the fact that God looks at your heart every time..

What I am saying is Gods judgement methods or w/e, will never change, so they cant be relative...

I couldn't find the one verse that I was really looking for, but here is one that works

QUOTE(1 John 5:17)All wrongdoing is sin

I'll try and find that other verse that I was talking about....

The problem is that you folk are comparing concepts to physical laws of nature, and they are entirely different. Plainly...an individual perceives an event in a particular way. The event lies in an instant of cause and effect, but what you perceive, depends on you and your ideas of what's "wrong" or "right", if it applies. We wouldn't be having this discussion or any, for that matter, if "wrong" and "right" were universal or absolute, opinions would be ultimately irrelevant.

"all wrongdoing is sin", that's just redundant, and preachy on top of that. It says nothing, explains nothing and gets nowhere.

THere is another verse, I just couldn't think of it off the top of my head.

Even if right and wrong were absolute, we still would be talking about it. See, what people think is right doesn't mean that it is right. So we'd still be talking about it because not everyone knows what the absolute values are.

...so...how do you know if they even exist?