ADN

i would say that in the case of myself, I have proof.

in fact, it was more like I found things going on spiritually with me, with no Hebrew in my noggin as yet. I couldn't find it in the Bible at all, and it was a source of confusion for me. Cause of the way I prayed when I was a child.

I prayed silently, over verses, ran through the verse slowly, *tasted* each word. Looked for why this word would be in the book, AT THIS POINT. I never just looked at it as a series of stories and history. I began to have experiences of a mystical nature. I found out more about Hebrew life and Caananite existence from that than any of the encyclopedias I read to see how "real" my visions were.

I studied about mythology, how it bends events to display divine intervention... as a means of understanding this "existence" and the "essence" of its creation. I learned how deity speaks to us through the mythos we create - How we can only begin to understand Creation when we ourselves begin to Create. This is why imagination is the greatest tool for self-examination we have.

If you need proof of the four Olam, "Worlds, Existences" or as the term is used now "Dimensions," you are welcome to try and find what you need at www.amazon.com. =D> You will find that these four dimensions are dealt with as "Above-Below" (Height) "North-South" (Width) "East-West" (breadth) and "The reconciliation of these." I suggest you start with the Graa text of the Sepher Yetzirah, older than the current version of the Torah.

If you need proof of the four Olam, the realms of:

Olam ha-Atziluth (Absolutes, the Platonic realm of "ideal")

Olam ha-Briah (Realm of Creation. the waters of heaven( what we galactic space, bound by the Mazloth, or sphere of fixed stars. The Zodiac of Ptolemy, not wacko new age astrology.)

Olam ha-Yetzirah (the Formative realm, when the ideas of man dwell, and in a lower sense where the world is touched upon by dream. These intellectual constructs are seen as fleeting and constant as the atmosphere of our planet. Called "The Matrix" by Archimedes; the world as Geometry, fashioned of interpentetrating solids.)

Olam ha-Asiah (The "actual physical world" where the realm fashioned by the whim of mankind is but one the farthest reaches." The basis for the Republic of Plato as being a means to control the natural forces inherent in mankind, and yoking them to Universal Brotherhood.)

You are welcome to search for these, start with the Sepher Ash Metzaraph. If you just look them up, you will find much talk of the Qabala, I advise that this is not the Qabala... but is a sacred knowledge nonetheless, and gets grouped with it. I avoid most people who talk about the "Qabala" because it is easier to talk of it than to understand it.

I don't read to learn new ideas, I read to see who has already grasped the ideas I have. These ideas, were the fare of the greatest minds in this world, be they chinese, Greek, Jewish, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic. There is no single culture that does not have a comparative structure for the creation of man - not even Physics.

Also, the argument for Imperical fact doesn't hold. Not even the greatest rationalists could provide fact suitable for the task.. It is why science abandoned it as a hopeless quest. Science is born and is the child of Revolution. In fact, the greatest limitation of the Scientific method is that it cannot prove anything... it can only say "we have not disproven it yet."

knowing full well, that it will... such is Science.

I personally would not encourage people to reply to this thread about this... it is apart from the thread's topic, and deserves its own pace and setting. This topic here is free will. I don't care how much you have read or not read. I try to keep the use of the word "cult" to a minimum, as it has a negative connotation, but doesn't inherently deserve one. I tend to reserve the term for the enemies of the Romans it applies to.

vertical,
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I'd like to say something about God being all-knowing.

No, the Bible doesn't say anything specifically about it, but it's implied everywhere. I don't remember the reference but the verse that says that God knows every hair on our head. There is a verse in Psalms that says that God knew us before we were born. There are countless others that implies that God is all-knowing

4 is the weakest link in my opinion...

Just because God knows something, does not mean he chose it for us..

We have to remember to think of God outside of time for this..

What if God only knows something, because we have already chose it in his eyes. Since He is outside of time, something we have not chosen yet, is already chosen by us

I made this point earlier, but I havent really seen it shot down yet..What if the future God knows is determined by the choices we (in our eyes) will make) in God's timeless eyes (have made)?

Iono, I havent thought this example thru so it might suck, but God's relationship to us may be similaaaaaaa (/:D" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt=":D" />) to that of us watching a movie we have seen many times..

We know how it go' end, but that does not equate to us choosing how it go' end..

"What if God only knows something, because we have already chose it in his eyes. Since He is outside of time, something we have not chosen yet, is already chosen by us"

Wow Deeje...that's a really good point. Since God is outside of time that may be the case. I'll have to think more about this.

Usually I'm right with you saint, but this I might have to think about

yea i kinda had to twist my brain a lil to understand it, but i think it may offer some kinda logic to the free will argument..

Yea it does.

Damn Deeje...now I'm not gonna get any sleep tonight

i like your sense of humor, Saint.

cute bunny.

Regarding Free will. See, this is another completely manipulated concept causing confusion by poor translation and lack of context. That is what I keep going back to... Without interpreting the text for yourself, you never see

The Torah says "El Chai" was breathed into Adam. Shaddai El Chai (The Almighty Living God) is the name of God as the God of Abraham called into existence when Elohim said unto YHVH, "Let us make man in our own image." This gave Adam Ratzon. There is not one definition for this word. The idea of "Free Will" is introduced in the Apocrypha. It is actually in the Book of Tobias, when he is told by Raphael this story. It is nowhere in the Bible, and Free will is a poor translation. We start thinking about destiny and what not. Plain and simple, Tobias asks "Why do some people worship false gods." Raphael says it is their Ratzon to do so, but only the Nephesh (animal nature) is thus aligned, for a man can only align his base nature with a lower god than the Almighty Lord. Every person who develops the Neshemah (the living soul born of the "Divine Chai"; called the Holy Spirit) is aligned with The Most High. The Ratzon is Their "Choice, desire, command, wish, or decision to accept a King's authority over the parts of their soul that they can concieve as being facets contained in their body. Ratzon is also a Hebrew word for "vote" as a noun. Like "you got my vote!" It is your Ratzon to align your Nephesh (Animal Soul) with what ever God or creed you choose, according to this book. choose wisely. The Neshamah (Spirit) is aligned unto God.

The reason that all Neshamah are devoted to YHVH is because YHVH exists outside the constraints of time. The name YHVH even means "God is, was and will be."

but this is not in the bible, is man's will *Free*... not until Paul makes it so.

Jeshua argues that the soul must submit to the higher authority of the spirit (The Neshamah) though the Nephesh has the right to choose.

The taming of the Nephesh is the goal of all discipline in Martial Arts, Scholarly disciplines, and oaths of worldly abstainance.

Anyways, those who properly yield their Nephesh to the Neshamah will taste of Godhood, according to Jeshua, and "be made as unto gods" to a new world called "Armageddeon" according to the Apocylupsis revealed to John in the cave of the Oracle.

I personally am of the opinion Man has been granted the ability to conceive free will, as a buffer for being unable to *get* the complete view of Divine will until making the grade, so to speak.

I believe God knows our every move, in the Absolute, and in the more limited expanses of existence, his perceptions are likewise limited. In the Capacity of he as Lord of the Universe... he is scarcely aware of our existence. Furhtermore, I believe humanity can obtain this knowledge by simple examination of itself. If there is truth of Self in man, and i holf this to be True, it would by virtue be limitation of course of action, in a temporal sense.

Regarding the "facts" in the "Bible" I never ask people "do you believe this, and don't concern myself with such "judgements on myself." It is whether or not I USE it! I don't believe you need to study this book or even see it. Jeshua never did. But the torah is rich in context and beyond beauty to those who see it for what it is, and he studied that vehemently. So, for that matter, is the Tao Te Jing... and its not a flawed history lesson.

vertical,
raum

First off, I must CDR @ that fucking Bunny and Pancake..!!!!!!!!! Too funny...

I too, think that we should seperate, and spill into a few new topics, but first, I'd really like DeEje and trash to explain how they have come to this omnipotent diety idea...In no myth I've ever read, did God's not have faults....Moreover, I believe in the fact that Godhood involves knowledge and creation...

If you haven't read it, please explain how it is implied even...Implications that lead to beliefs that concrete should be easy...Your woman comes home with a hickey on her neck, and cum stains in her panties when you know you haven't fucked her, is a pretty good implication that she's getting dick from somewhere else....It don't have to be discussed...

I think it should be equally as obvious to point out what you guys are talking about on the free will/omnipotent God idea, so feel free to create another topic if it merits it...