I feel that...
So raum, do you think that all our choices are based on our genetics and environment?
Free Will.....
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AYHJA
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QUOTE(DeEje)God has known/knows/will know our every move, and it is fulfilling for him because we are choosing them...Yes, in God's view, we have already chosen some actions, are choosing them, and will choose them  all at the same time  because time is N/A...
Man, that just don't add up to the kid....I will not pretend that I know God's plan for us...But if what you think is true, then God is just fucking with us, and we're here, toiling for no reason...
There is no sin, good or evil in that hypothesis...It's all God's plan...Our universe is not set up like that, it isn't set up to not have balance...
Man, that just don't add up to the kid....I will not pretend that I know God's plan for us...But if what you think is true, then God is just fucking with us, and we're here, toiling for no reason...
There is no sin, good or evil in that hypothesis...It's all God's plan...Our universe is not set up like that, it isn't set up to not have balance...
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AYHJA
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For some clarification:
Belief: 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing...
Hope: 1 : to cherish a desire with anticipation
Belief: 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing...
Hope: 1 : to cherish a desire with anticipation
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raum
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saintlz,
you want to know something. I have proof, evidence for myself, that god exists, and wants us (or at least me) to become so much more.
I was studying the bible two hours a day, and then the torah, and then Biblical and ancient history... and mythology and other religions and philosophy and science looking for things I could not describe but had witnessed.
As far as my methods, i am cetain I am on a correct path, based on evidence, the least of which is thus:
I was color blind, and I am now not by a series of systemized prayers that have correlation to DNA mathematics. I was color blind for more than 20 years. I am not anymore. This happened about 2 years ago.
I was confirmed by the Navy as color blind, and by an optrician two months ago, when I got my new contacts... My vision is improving.
I have evidence of things no religion openly speaks of, and things they all profess off the tips of mistranslated tongues... and it is not in books I excel, it is in deeds.
I know God exists, and Christianity, for me, was a step of my path toward that destination of Truth.
I have been accepted among MANY religions as being in touch with "a divine precept that has evidentally made itself known to ardent believer,cautious skeptics, and apathathetic rationalists, alike" (I use this word from a Dean's Professor of Mathematics in Kansas, a previous agnostic who is leaning ever toward the understand of the Orphic Theories of Ralph Abraham, I have been in three visual student documentaries one the interaction with the human and the divine, and one in which I provided interesting material which challenged some people's skepticism. According to the U.C. Berkeley Graduate Theologists Union, i have offered acceptable criteria for the proof of sentient afterlife or spectral recording of persona. I never went to school there, though. so, I was not a member.
that "ghost" was my former mentor, who still I communicate with. I knew him less than a month, and was there subletting at his house to learn, primarily Egyptian linguistics, and in exchange I would pay rent, and keep the place up, and serve as custodian for his volumous library which sprawled into every one of the 7 rooms of the house... and completely overpowered the den. I learned but a little from him while he was alive, but we developed a powerful connection. Simply by our connection, I have discovered his deepest confidences, confirmed by the evidence of his belongings, his surviving family, his closest friends, and his legacy of students. He told me, posthumously, where the handwritten copies of his liefs work were hidden. In the exact location where He indicated, i found them and still have them in my sole possession. His ex-wife
(they were legally seperated for years) was told by him that these were to remain in my possession when she came to get stuff of hers, though I had never told her i found them and it was more than two years after his death!
I have studied with a Voudou priest, and learned of the Loa what they would teach, and why voudou is not a religion. I studied with a Khemetic Priest who could read Heiroglyphics better than most people can read English, a Sufi from Afghanastan , A Gnostic priest from Greece, a variety of Masons of different Rites, and Initiates of orders you have never heard of, a Taoist Master from Taiwan, a member of the British royal Society of Astrologers, even a Physical Alchemist (mineral and vegetable) who could pull gold from the morning dew in the Berkeley hills and a physicist that discovered a new element in the periodic table!
I am an accomplished exorcist, a definitive source on the works of one of the most obscure and most impressive Natural Philosophers of Western Civilization. I have fasted Ramadan in The Black Market of the World, and feasted richly on Shabbat (Sabbath) and Seder (Passover) in the bowels of a hurricane.
I have Walked with the Ravens up the Glaciers that are North of Juno, of which Mendenhall is the smallest, and I have seen the first cherry blossoms of spring on the forbidden island off Japan where the Shinto religion started. They don't allow Westerners there, without Imperial consent and armed escorts.
I have awed the maui priest and hina priestess at the Luau on Kauai in celebration of the first blue moon since Elvis made "Blue Hawaii." I am wanted back in that land for my translation of the Kumulipo (their sacred song of creation and their lineage), and my understanding of their culture, which I never had exposure to.
I have tasted the communion of an apostolic lineage bearing Bishop, though I have never been confirmed Catholic. I have recieved that same lineage though I have no oaths to Catholicism or the Pope.
and none of this is my proof. this is the path of Truth my proof set me upon.
What makes you think I would do this without proof?
I am thirty years old and this has been my life for at least 18 of them. I can reliably say I am certain I have reason to believe our consciousness does not end immediately with our physical form's animation. I can also say that "claiming belief is not enough" to determine what happens at that point.
The key is focus and development for that event, or you are subject to the influence of those that venerate you, and the vitriolic deterioration of your personal essence into the base essense that is the "clay" from which "Adam" was fashioned, the stuff of which "thought" is "formed."
Every religion worth its salt has methods of doing so. i have learned many of these from many religions, and learned what is open in this religion is often secret in that. the greatest evidence in all of this knowledge comes from one source, and that diversity in religion is based upon different developments from the same source. It is that source that I seek, and have at times seem more than a glimmer of.
All human existence is but a glimmer of that source, I call Truth..., even these posts.
My statement of my beliefs have changed constantly, and I expect they will change again or at least more formly inform themselves based on my experience, which meads me to greater knowledge of Self... or I'm just not living a life worth living.
May your statement of your beliefs change often.
vertical,
raum
you want to know something. I have proof, evidence for myself, that god exists, and wants us (or at least me) to become so much more.
I was studying the bible two hours a day, and then the torah, and then Biblical and ancient history... and mythology and other religions and philosophy and science looking for things I could not describe but had witnessed.
As far as my methods, i am cetain I am on a correct path, based on evidence, the least of which is thus:
I was color blind, and I am now not by a series of systemized prayers that have correlation to DNA mathematics. I was color blind for more than 20 years. I am not anymore. This happened about 2 years ago.
I was confirmed by the Navy as color blind, and by an optrician two months ago, when I got my new contacts... My vision is improving.
I have evidence of things no religion openly speaks of, and things they all profess off the tips of mistranslated tongues... and it is not in books I excel, it is in deeds.
I know God exists, and Christianity, for me, was a step of my path toward that destination of Truth.
I have been accepted among MANY religions as being in touch with "a divine precept that has evidentally made itself known to ardent believer,cautious skeptics, and apathathetic rationalists, alike" (I use this word from a Dean's Professor of Mathematics in Kansas, a previous agnostic who is leaning ever toward the understand of the Orphic Theories of Ralph Abraham, I have been in three visual student documentaries one the interaction with the human and the divine, and one in which I provided interesting material which challenged some people's skepticism. According to the U.C. Berkeley Graduate Theologists Union, i have offered acceptable criteria for the proof of sentient afterlife or spectral recording of persona. I never went to school there, though. so, I was not a member.
that "ghost" was my former mentor, who still I communicate with. I knew him less than a month, and was there subletting at his house to learn, primarily Egyptian linguistics, and in exchange I would pay rent, and keep the place up, and serve as custodian for his volumous library which sprawled into every one of the 7 rooms of the house... and completely overpowered the den. I learned but a little from him while he was alive, but we developed a powerful connection. Simply by our connection, I have discovered his deepest confidences, confirmed by the evidence of his belongings, his surviving family, his closest friends, and his legacy of students. He told me, posthumously, where the handwritten copies of his liefs work were hidden. In the exact location where He indicated, i found them and still have them in my sole possession. His ex-wife
(they were legally seperated for years) was told by him that these were to remain in my possession when she came to get stuff of hers, though I had never told her i found them and it was more than two years after his death!
I have studied with a Voudou priest, and learned of the Loa what they would teach, and why voudou is not a religion. I studied with a Khemetic Priest who could read Heiroglyphics better than most people can read English, a Sufi from Afghanastan , A Gnostic priest from Greece, a variety of Masons of different Rites, and Initiates of orders you have never heard of, a Taoist Master from Taiwan, a member of the British royal Society of Astrologers, even a Physical Alchemist (mineral and vegetable) who could pull gold from the morning dew in the Berkeley hills and a physicist that discovered a new element in the periodic table!
I am an accomplished exorcist, a definitive source on the works of one of the most obscure and most impressive Natural Philosophers of Western Civilization. I have fasted Ramadan in The Black Market of the World, and feasted richly on Shabbat (Sabbath) and Seder (Passover) in the bowels of a hurricane.
I have Walked with the Ravens up the Glaciers that are North of Juno, of which Mendenhall is the smallest, and I have seen the first cherry blossoms of spring on the forbidden island off Japan where the Shinto religion started. They don't allow Westerners there, without Imperial consent and armed escorts.
I have awed the maui priest and hina priestess at the Luau on Kauai in celebration of the first blue moon since Elvis made "Blue Hawaii." I am wanted back in that land for my translation of the Kumulipo (their sacred song of creation and their lineage), and my understanding of their culture, which I never had exposure to.
I have tasted the communion of an apostolic lineage bearing Bishop, though I have never been confirmed Catholic. I have recieved that same lineage though I have no oaths to Catholicism or the Pope.
and none of this is my proof. this is the path of Truth my proof set me upon.
What makes you think I would do this without proof?
I am thirty years old and this has been my life for at least 18 of them. I can reliably say I am certain I have reason to believe our consciousness does not end immediately with our physical form's animation. I can also say that "claiming belief is not enough" to determine what happens at that point.
The key is focus and development for that event, or you are subject to the influence of those that venerate you, and the vitriolic deterioration of your personal essence into the base essense that is the "clay" from which "Adam" was fashioned, the stuff of which "thought" is "formed."
Every religion worth its salt has methods of doing so. i have learned many of these from many religions, and learned what is open in this religion is often secret in that. the greatest evidence in all of this knowledge comes from one source, and that diversity in religion is based upon different developments from the same source. It is that source that I seek, and have at times seem more than a glimmer of.
All human existence is but a glimmer of that source, I call Truth..., even these posts.
My statement of my beliefs have changed constantly, and I expect they will change again or at least more formly inform themselves based on my experience, which meads me to greater knowledge of Self... or I'm just not living a life worth living.
May your statement of your beliefs change often.
vertical,
raum
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AYHJA
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^^
That's fine, as teh convo had drifted a bit more off topic than anything...Alas, my question remains, and anybody can answer it...How can free will NOT exist..?
That's fine, as teh convo had drifted a bit more off topic than anything...Alas, my question remains, and anybody can answer it...How can free will NOT exist..?
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raum
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ok, saintlz is not even responding to me,.. when what I was illustrating was that this whole talk of God and will is not the proprietary knowledge of the Christians, and he tend to think I simply have belief.
Man, it is not about belief or faith,.. it is about works and evidence! And how a person can be science oriented and not understand science is full of irreproducible results..
i will let that drop.
Now, back to the topic of Free Will.
Ayhja asks how can free will NOT exist.
1. If God allows scenarios to develop which bring a person to work towards Divinity or away from It. This is the prime element in Religious thought... it is not free will, it is conditioning scenarios to define existence.
that's one prevailing point of view that refutes free will,.. who says it is ENTIRELY *free*. For me, you exercise that will to make it "more disciplined. With wisdom, you learn that what you do then is simply adhere INHERENTLY to Divine will (also called Nature) without recourse.
vertical,
raum
Man, it is not about belief or faith,.. it is about works and evidence! And how a person can be science oriented and not understand science is full of irreproducible results..
i will let that drop.
Now, back to the topic of Free Will.
Ayhja asks how can free will NOT exist.
1. If God allows scenarios to develop which bring a person to work towards Divinity or away from It. This is the prime element in Religious thought... it is not free will, it is conditioning scenarios to define existence.
that's one prevailing point of view that refutes free will,.. who says it is ENTIRELY *free*. For me, you exercise that will to make it "more disciplined. With wisdom, you learn that what you do then is simply adhere INHERENTLY to Divine will (also called Nature) without recourse.
vertical,
raum
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AYHJA
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OK, while I can understand that, which is kind of along the lines of the classroom scenario I layed out...
To me, free will is free will...There are no levels of free will, because frankly, I don't think that God is that interested in our rather insignificant little lives...I don't think that God really cares whether or not we go piss right now, or wait until we can't hold it any more...
To me, free will means that if I get the notion to eat an apple, providing there is one there, I can eat an apple...There isn't a little voice in my head that says, "Thou mustn't eat that apple," to which I can obey or disobey with...
And if we are the experiments of a conditioning scenario, then we, being imperfect, are here to fail...And by failing, we succeed..? I think that over simplifies our having a reason to live...
To me, free will is free will...There are no levels of free will, because frankly, I don't think that God is that interested in our rather insignificant little lives...I don't think that God really cares whether or not we go piss right now, or wait until we can't hold it any more...
To me, free will means that if I get the notion to eat an apple, providing there is one there, I can eat an apple...There isn't a little voice in my head that says, "Thou mustn't eat that apple," to which I can obey or disobey with...
And if we are the experiments of a conditioning scenario, then we, being imperfect, are here to fail...And by failing, we succeed..? I think that over simplifies our having a reason to live...
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raum
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I think you heard some things I didn't say, m8...
No, the apple example is not right.
I break it down from God to Man:
There is Lord of the Universe. This being emits and embodies Law. Call it Natura, Legis, Ma†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢at, Aemeth, Torah, Fortune, Tao, whatever,.. They all indicate the same thing. The Lord of the Universe adheres to this Law, even in that ways that have yet to be discovered.
I can't really say, or refute the idea From Lord of the Universe, all things are Created. In fact, if I were to try and define the Lord of the Universe, I would have to say "The Personification of the Prime Event (not really a Bang, per se) of Existence as an initial and enduring and all-Permeating Essence.
Man is a form of life, and specifically evolved. Animated life is a strong resonance of that same essence of Lord of the Universe. It is in that staring that human consciousness can definitely not have a beginning or an end. Instead, it passes through stages of reception and awareness. These developmental stages are actually identified by the science of neurology. It is generally held that there are fluctuating.
In reality, I suspect they are far more controllable that most imagine. Studies of the mental affect of Meditation strongly support this. Consciousness is inexplicably connected throughout all life forms, and passes specifically between living beings, animate and inanimate through stimuli affecting the senses.
This consciousness is not limited to those things which are physical, as there exists many thought-forms than have no conceived notion humans even exist.
To me, this consciousness as a united phenomenon, disavows the notion of free will, as a "poor translation" of Ratzon. Ratzon is the choice to adhere to inclinations formed in the personal partition of universal consciousness based on instinct and sensory input, AS WELL AS those faculties of hope, belief, skepticism, emotional input, and countless other factors. We could argue that the best common translation of the word "Ratzon" is "Sentience." This is specifically defined here as the capacity to communicate and embody the Superego in action and deed. We certainly possess this capacity but sadly few make effort to consistently maintain this state.
The communication with the superego is the first step to learning ONE's WILL. In time, this is discovered to be inseparable from the Law; BUT ONLY WHEN ONE HAS DEVELOPED THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW does even the notion of death become questionable.
The Law exists, but there is no fine line of when it has been crossed. It is when one's consciousness standard is subhuman. This is most easily seen in such afflicted people as the addict, who sacrifices all meaning for the temporary relief of their vice.
Will has shit to do with "If i want an apple, I will eat it." in my opinion. That†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢s just audacity. Nothing wrong with demonstrating a little audacity or you become a push-over. Will is more about becoming as God!
Will, on the human level, is the bond of the atoms of my flesh and the cadence of the heart in my chest to me. Will is the force that coordinates every muscle in my hand to make a fist when I simply "make a fist", if I know the name and numbers of the muscle groups or not. It is necessarily bound, and struggling in those bonds of human anatomy, personal relationship, social construct, and personal discipline, and they are the means by which it becomes strong enough to enable my "personal" consciousness to integrate itself universally and on completely different levels, maintain individual focus in infinite directions. This is the capacity necessary for a God.
That doesn't come *free*. It costs everything you are and own.
vertical,
raum
No, the apple example is not right.
I break it down from God to Man:
There is Lord of the Universe. This being emits and embodies Law. Call it Natura, Legis, Ma†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢at, Aemeth, Torah, Fortune, Tao, whatever,.. They all indicate the same thing. The Lord of the Universe adheres to this Law, even in that ways that have yet to be discovered.
I can't really say, or refute the idea From Lord of the Universe, all things are Created. In fact, if I were to try and define the Lord of the Universe, I would have to say "The Personification of the Prime Event (not really a Bang, per se) of Existence as an initial and enduring and all-Permeating Essence.
Man is a form of life, and specifically evolved. Animated life is a strong resonance of that same essence of Lord of the Universe. It is in that staring that human consciousness can definitely not have a beginning or an end. Instead, it passes through stages of reception and awareness. These developmental stages are actually identified by the science of neurology. It is generally held that there are fluctuating.
In reality, I suspect they are far more controllable that most imagine. Studies of the mental affect of Meditation strongly support this. Consciousness is inexplicably connected throughout all life forms, and passes specifically between living beings, animate and inanimate through stimuli affecting the senses.
This consciousness is not limited to those things which are physical, as there exists many thought-forms than have no conceived notion humans even exist.
To me, this consciousness as a united phenomenon, disavows the notion of free will, as a "poor translation" of Ratzon. Ratzon is the choice to adhere to inclinations formed in the personal partition of universal consciousness based on instinct and sensory input, AS WELL AS those faculties of hope, belief, skepticism, emotional input, and countless other factors. We could argue that the best common translation of the word "Ratzon" is "Sentience." This is specifically defined here as the capacity to communicate and embody the Superego in action and deed. We certainly possess this capacity but sadly few make effort to consistently maintain this state.
The communication with the superego is the first step to learning ONE's WILL. In time, this is discovered to be inseparable from the Law; BUT ONLY WHEN ONE HAS DEVELOPED THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW does even the notion of death become questionable.
The Law exists, but there is no fine line of when it has been crossed. It is when one's consciousness standard is subhuman. This is most easily seen in such afflicted people as the addict, who sacrifices all meaning for the temporary relief of their vice.
Will has shit to do with "If i want an apple, I will eat it." in my opinion. That†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢s just audacity. Nothing wrong with demonstrating a little audacity or you become a push-over. Will is more about becoming as God!
Will, on the human level, is the bond of the atoms of my flesh and the cadence of the heart in my chest to me. Will is the force that coordinates every muscle in my hand to make a fist when I simply "make a fist", if I know the name and numbers of the muscle groups or not. It is necessarily bound, and struggling in those bonds of human anatomy, personal relationship, social construct, and personal discipline, and they are the means by which it becomes strong enough to enable my "personal" consciousness to integrate itself universally and on completely different levels, maintain individual focus in infinite directions. This is the capacity necessary for a God.
That doesn't come *free*. It costs everything you are and own.
vertical,
raum
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