ADN

Ok, I am in hawaii on vacation right now on my dad's laptop. As some of you know, I have not been able to log into the site (even with a new user name) from my home comp. I am off to college soon so I will be able to access the site more regularly /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Alright, I made it thru about 5 of the 10 real threads that have been going on since I've been out, and plan on finishing them this week...Hopefully some responses too...But I wanted to throw this out there first so there is enough time for a decent discussion to take place b4 I gotta go back home to the fucked up comp (maybe I just need firefox...if that works, I dont wanna hear it Ty...haha).

I got a handful of questions, but first and foremost is the topic of predestination...I know we have covered this before but I engaged in a lengthy discussion about it with a friend who is here with me...I'm kinda stuck...Here is what's up...

The main argument against predestination is that it kills our choice, which in essence kills love, (most believe all true love involves a choice to love, can't FORCE it, etc), which kills any decent reason to live..Ty said "If God intended for us to live our lives as he has written it, what is our purpose for living..?"

The answer, in my friend's opinion, is to bring glory to God. In essence, we are pawns to serve God. God is so perfect and cannot stand sin to the point that this becomes more important than love via free will. God would rather choose for us bringing glory to Him, than to offer us the choice not to. My homie believes God is too perfect to not receive as much glory as possible, and that we are too fucked up to do that on our own (give God his due glory). Pretty much, since God is so holy, He has to make the choices for us, because our choices would not bring any glory to him (since we are totally depraved).

This perspective has moderately answered a question that had been driving me crazy...Why would God create a perfect world? What is good without evil? Well, according to this argument, he created a perfect world to bring glory to him, even if it was pointless . If it is all about glory, why does meaning matter?

One last thing...I asked him, if God wanted as much glory as possible, why didn't he choose everyone to be with Him in heaven? He feels that those not selected are merely instruments to nurture and develop the chosen (in one way or another). Basically, the non-christians are used to bring trials and tribulations to the world for the Christians to be broken down from (at first) but then grow from in the end.

Like I said, I like how this helps to solve the "perfect world" problem...but I still have a few questions...It seems to me that for this theory to be true, either not everyone is equal in God's eyes (why would he choose some and not others), orrrr, (if everyone is equal) some people are just, errr, lucky (?). My friend feels that understanding why some are chosen and others are not is beyond our human comprehension level, in the same way that 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina are. Basically, you can't know why God chooses some and not others because we are trapped inside time.

But still...

God doesn't seem the type of entity who is some Nazi ruler who only wants us to glorify Him, whether we want to (or intend to even) or not. I still think God would not create a pointless world. Just doesn't seem right, doesn't seem to flow with nature and how the world works. The God that I try to follow is not a possessive psycho, but a loving mentor. But my position falls apart when asked "Why did God create a perfect world?"

Thoughts thoughts thoughts thoughts let's hear em!!!!!!!!!

I believe that God had to create a perfect world. How can God, who is perfect, create something that's not perfect? He couldn't bring evil into the world because He is without evil. No why did He allow Lucifer to fall and allow evil to enter? I beleive that it's because of the Law of Opposites. You need evil to know what good is. I think that's why he had Lucifer fall from heaven.

I also believe that God created us with the sole purpose of being glory to Him. That's why we are here. I like your reasoning for free will. It kind of makes sense to a question that I had been having. But with our sole purpose of bringing glory to God, who is better to know what glory is than God himself. So it would make sense that he would have us bring glory to him in a way that he felt was fitting.

As you know, Aemeth, this is pretty much my life long question and topic that I love to discuss. It interests me in many, many ways. I know we've talked about this a lot on here and between just the two of us (Aemeth and I) but I feel like I'm better equipped now to answer some of the tough questions....at least I'll do my best

alright so this is the friend that aemeth was talking about he kinda got me hooked and shit but to get to the point...

when your dealing with the fact of free will and predestination, you have to go to the very beginning of the world, before it was even created...

God in his infinite power designed my life aemeths life everyone's before the creation of the world, the same with 9-11, he designed or predestined the allowing of satan to enter the hearts of these terrorists and attack the twin towers...so when people say "well God made us before the time of the world he created us with a choice" thats not true...

if you look at the whole book of ephesians it explains very well but to get to the point look at Ephesians 1:4-6
"For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he PREDESTINED us to be adopted as His sons through his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

Also what i have trouble figuring out is if people say ya there is free will, than i ask "so your saying that we have a little bit of good in us to determine OURSELVES whether we are goin to accept Christ or not..."

Well then i come to this passage (which is not the only passage the whole bible is riddled with this) in again Ephesians 2

"1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢‚

¬Å¡‚¬‚it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬

‚and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬

‚ 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
One in Christ 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬

‚ 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Sorry that was such a long quote but I believe that it is totally relevant to explain where im coming from...

Now that says in the beginning of it that we DEAD, not stuck in a coma, not unconscience but dead in our "transgressions and sins"...

How can we be dead and yet still be able to "choose" Christ...

when your dead your dead, you cant move, think, speak, anything your DEAD, without life not possible of choosing anything...

theres no possible way, the only way is God choosing us from the foundations of the world to be with him and to be his child. Not freewill but predistination

then they go on and ask well is that fair that some people get to come to heaven or not...

well if you want to go on fair whats fair for us is eternal damnation and separation from God, thats what we deserve for fucking it over in the first place...

so its not a matter of something being fair just the fact that you are a chosen child adopted through the blood of Jesus is all you need to concern yourself with...sure people are goin to go hell and like i said im new to this whole debating thing so im not totally sure and havnt looked into that hard but theres some things you just need to accept as Gods will theres no need to delve into

anyway im sorry if its a little confusing like i said im new so im in a learning cycle right now i have a very strong feelign about this topic but that does mean im not open to different views and maybe ill learn in this process so please read this and ask or analize what ive written so that i know maybe im on to something or not

Before we go any further, which of the petty, simple minded God's are you guys referring to that would be perfect, yet require the utterly impossible sinless servitude of a creature that he created with the inability to do what he wants..? Man, that's one sadistic mofo..! I don't want no parts of that God..!

Also, I feel the need to clarify that if we are talking about the rather powerful humanoid type Gods that created us, or the infinitely capable catalyst of all things that I call the Lord of the Universe...

As we know, our VU discussions can be easily lost in semantics, and I don't want to have that happen... /:D" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt=":D" />

But on a whim, all you have to do is ask yourself how can we go against our very nature..? What other of "God's" creations does such a thing..? Why would we have the ability to think and reason and question, and be made as God, if we are not supposed to do so..? IE, why don't you hear cows barking like dogs..? What is it about humans, that we feel we are asked to do more than what has been defined naturally..?

There are various states of man, and there is a state where man's will is synonmous with the Divine Providence.

It is up to every man to achieve that state, if they seek it.

Thus is it the Epistles that tell us to have the Certain Resolve OF Christ, not Faith IN Christ.

Seriously, if all you do is believe the reciever can make a touchdown, do you get to kick the fieldgoal?

Man was designed with Choice. One of those choices is to be a dwelling place for the providence of God. Another is to serve his base urges and be a creature of little more than instinct. Another is to seek the complete depravity of his exisence.

Let him choose as he will, and without fear of respite, less he choose from a point of weakness and desire, even if that desire be to do only good. Instead, let him bear the resolve of the Annointed, see the inner truth of himself and EMBRACE THAT WHICH HE IS ! And be he either pure evil, or pure good, or pure balance; He is pure.

But he who seeks to do good, out of fear he might do evil,.. let him do nothing. for he does nothing more than torment himself with the knowledge that he is not true to himself.

and there is no greater enemy of God than he who is not true to himself.

I'll add a quick response now but fully intend to come back to this thread later with something well thought out.

I just wanted to address the use of the term "dead" very quickly. There are two deaths referred to throughout the scriptures; I'll add a quick response now but fully intend to come back to this thread later with something well thought out.

I just wanted to address the use of the term "dead" very quickly. There are two deaths referred to throughout the scriptures; physical death and spiritual death. Both describe the process of separation. Physical death occurs when our spirit/soul leaves/is separated from our physical body. Spiritual death occurs when our soul/spirit is cut off from the presence of God. Both forms of death were brought into the world through Adam†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢¬…¾

‚¢s transgression (not sin, but transgression). Through the resurrection, Christ made it possible for all to overcome death (physical). Through the atonement, Christ overcame spiritual death, making it possible for all mankind to be cleansed of their sins and enter God†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢¬…¾

‚¢s presence again. Thus, a man may be alive (physically) and dead (spiritually) at the same time if they are unrepentant of their sins.

Both forms of death were brought into the world through Adam†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬‚¢¢¢¬…¾

‚¢s transgression (not sin, but transgression).

Not so,.. Biblically speaking.

Physical death was brought through the transgression of Adam and Eve.

Spiritual death was brought through the transgression of Cain. It was he who was first separated from God.

it was this unprecedented punishment that terrified him, that he bears his mark.

The word "Messiah" is an adjective, not a person, a state of being modifying ANY person to who it is applied.

So I was talking to a friend of mine who is a seminary professor. I asked him about predestination and he told me that God elects who will have salvation or not. I countered by saying wouldn't that mean that God also elects who will go to Hell. He said no. God's love is an inclusive love and not exclusive. It is man who excludes himself from God, yet it is God who includes us with him. He said that this is different than how we would think logically. I told him that I thought that if God includes that means He must exclude. He told me that the law of relationships (or something like that) is different than the law of logic. In the law of logic, I would be correct, but in the law of relationships, including some is not excluding others.

Just something to ponder

So I was talking to a friend of mine who is a seminary professor.

Thus, he is well trained in his responses according to his denomination. He can, i am certain, speak very definitively on his approach to this subject. What denomination would that be?

I asked him about predestination and he told me that God elects who will have salvation or not. I countered by saying wouldn't that mean that God also elects who will go to Hell. He said no. God's love is an inclusive love and not exclusive. It is man who excludes himself from God, yet it is God who includes us with him.

Who causes the fruit, grown full, to fall from the tree? Is it the fruit, the tree, or perhaps some other invisible force? or Perhaps, there is some tendency in the fruit to grow, and thus grow so heavy that it falls from the branch,.. and is then left to yet even more unseeable and uncontrollable force? Does the fruit decide what happens to it when it falls from the tree, where it becomes a snack for a child, or the detritus that feeds the tree, or perhaps a tree all to its self? We take all of those forces, from that which causes the seed to bud, to that which calls the fruit to fall full - and we identify them in the totality of God.

it is as mysterious as the force which brings forth this question to your mind, and beyond, to this forum.

He said that this is different than how we would think logically. I told him that I thought that if God includes that means He must exclude. He told me that the law of relationships (or something like that) is different than the law of logic. In the law of logic, I would be correct, but in the law of relationships, including some is not excluding others.

The criteria for inclusion is unconditional surrender to the Truth. Fulfillment of that criteria is your task alone.

I know this is sooo wrong.... but sometimes when I read your posts, Raum, I picture a guy in Yoda Costume sittin' at his keyboard...typing out the mysteries of the cosmos...