ADN

...Im starting this thread in response to questions directed at me. I didnt want to force the people in the evolution thread to have to read this stuff if its not what there in to

.x3n....Anyhows, love is a very personal experience, by definition it's subjective. I have no problem comparing love to being touched by god. Love is just as easily broken down as a flood of "happy juice" in the brain. It also affects pulse, sweat glands, brings about euphoria, etc.

..me.....Ya got me on this one. I wasn¢¢¬¢ž¢t prepared for love to be broken down to a chemical reaction..The only thing I can do is ask questions .Is love ( as in the love of a wife ) defined by a chemical reaction. If some one on the moon with never a contact with another person were injected with some thing that would create the happy juice would they experience love or just be having a good day?

..x3n.... I've "asked god" to help me with revenge and it worked.
.x3n... I was raised Catholic, talked to god when I was a kid and practiced meditation techniques for close to a decade, martial arts for way longer. Now I ask you, how do YOU know I never experienced god?

me....Big screw up on my part. Sorry for the offence. I must admit im a little confused in trying to see where you stand You talk as if there is no superior being and the act of prayer is just a mind game but you say you asked god to help you get revenge and believe he answered you. You ask for proof of god and point to our inability to provide it and than claim to have experienced god yourself. If god is helping you with revenge we have a big difference in what we see as god. If were just seeing god in a differant way than i dont get the hardness of your stance.

..x3n....If you're not too afraid of testing your own claims, do so. Pick any aspect in your life where you think god might have a hand in it (shouldn¢¢¬¢ž¢t be too hard) and try to change the outcome with or without prayer. I'd encourage you to go as simple as possible. You know what the outcome will be?...the outcome will be you wondering what god might have been going after when he "made it not happen".


.me......I sense in you a lack of patience for talking about this so ill try to keep it brief .First you become aware of god ..than you discover there is another way of seeing the world ..than you give yourself over to gods will ..than his view becomes your view. If all that takes place than your prayers will be in line with his will and god answers prayers that further his path for you. Knowing how to pray is important. I spent some time looking up passages on how prayer works I dont want to bore you so. I picked the 2 I think best describes the point im trying too make

James 4 v3.......And even when you do ask you dont get it ( what you prayed for ) because your whole motive is wrong-you want only what will give you pleasure. The study notes explain it this way...".most common problems with prayer are..1 not asking..2 asking for the wrong things or asking for the wrong reasons. Do you pray only to satisfy your own desires? Do you seek gods approval for what you already plan to do?. Your prayers will become powerful when you allow god to change your desirers so that they perfectly correspond to his will for you."

and....1 john 5 v14 And we can be confident he will listen to us whenever we ask him for anything in line with his will.

Yes this is all dripping with faith as you put it but if you¢¢¬¢ž¢re going to criticize some ones beliefs you need to know what they are.Theres a big deference between praying for what you want and praying for help and letting god decide how. Most times we dont really know what we want or the right path to take. Saying proof of god is prayers answered on your terms means you think you have all the answers figured out and when you dont get what you want you say it doesnt work. Its the over simplified genie in the bottle view . And you didnt mention time .What rules have you made up for that Does God have to answer you in a day ..a week..or is a year still good..How about the way he helps .Could it be in 3 or 4 steps or does it have have to happen all at once to meet your standards.....You cant control god and you cant get what ever you want. I dont have to try your experiment to know that how you suggest one should pray doesnt work It wouldn't " leave me "wondering what he was going after by not answering it"..becouse I already know i was praying for the wrong reason (see previous paragraph ).. All so testing god serves no purpose of his and does nothing to help you further your relationship with him so why would he answer. No mystery to me

..x3n...I've asked for health on family members that passed. We've all seen buildings crumble, tsunamis wiping people and leaving them to rot and wars taking lives by the thousands, I would guess most of the deceased prayed to be spared

...........me...A very serious question ..Nobody can answer that one in a good enough way but heres a couple thoughts. God doesnt promise physical protection he promises spiritual protection. All of us have some one we love enough to pray for with all our might. If God answered all those prayers no would ever die.What God does do is give you the strength or the calm to deal with your real need. Does he some times intervene? I believe so but thats not a guaranty and not an abandonment of the one praying if he doesnt.
......Natural disasters like the tsunami that killed so many are another big question when it comes to why. I choose to look at it this way. God is responsible for the creation of the laws that govern the earth. He doent direct these laws because they sustain them selves What god is not responsible for is how as humans we decide to live.He gave us brains and freedom of choice. We dont have to build on top of fault lines and in areas like Orleans below sea level .We dont have to build levies that dont work or buildings that crumble at the least jolt. Money and resources dont need to be only for the rich countries and millions dont need to starve. Resources could be more evenly distributed relieving much of the worlds problems and planning could save countless lives The world has problems because we choice priorities based on personal wants and not the good of all. Yes that¢¢¬¢ž¢s a utopian attitude and maybe were not capable of it. I read some were that a little girl saved a beach full of people during the tsunami because she recognized the conditions and warned people. Imagine if the world had donated the money to put up an early warning system how many could have been saved.. Guess what . I read thats what they did but it took 200,000 people dying to guilt the world into doing it. And for you people worried about the resources to do these things ...How much cheaper would it have been to spend the money on early warning systems and strong levies as opposed to what it ended up costing..This is not a god thing .... its a human thing

..x3n....... I have no problem comparing love to being touched by god.

..me.........Than were closer than you think.

just a quick note on prayer...i think praying for external, independent things rarely makes a difference in the external world (honestly...sorry...) because very few people understand how it works...me being one of those...however, asking God to help you with patience, love, etc., imho, is much more effective (I'm not claiming it is proven, but just much more effective, at least has been in my life...)

On a side note though, quantum science has shown some strange things with random number generators and such at times like during the Superbowl, 9/11, and other events where many are thinking and focusing on the same thing...I used to think "prayer days" and shit were bogus, but science ironically may be changing my perspective, as I know I am not so sure about them...

just a quick note on prayer...i think praying for external, independent things rarely makes a difference in the external world (honestly...sorry...) because very few people understand how it works...me being one of those...however, asking God to help you with patience, love, etc., imho, is much more effective (I'm not claiming it is proven, but just much more effective, at least has been in my life...)

.me...Thats cool Im not looking for everyone to agree with me. If that were the case i would hang out on some christian site.This is much more interesting. Part of why i wright a big post like that is becouse i get tired of what feels like an over simplification of christian belief or the idea were simple minded for believing in it. The other reason is for myself . It helps me understand what i believe.
As for the cllective conscious thing i dont know much about that. I had a dream a while back. I was at a party my sister was having at a specific place. I left at some point ...went down an elevator and went out side.. Sirens went off and planes came over and there was some sort of explosion far away .People started to leave the biulding so i stood a few feet from the door waiting for my sisters daughter in case she wasnt with her mother ...than i woke up. Talked to my sister 2 days later and she had the same dream on the same night but from her point of view. She gave a party..i was there...it was the same location as my dream....she heard sirens......people started to leave so she sent her daughter down the elevator ahead of her and than went back to grab some thing ....than started to worry about her daughter. I think thats when she woke up .This was about 5 months before 9-11 so that wasnt a factor.. Is that a collective conscious event ?.

Slightly off topic, I just want to add that I enjoy your views highlife, and the perspective that you bring to the forum...I really like your idea of this thread, and look forwards to what x3n has to say in response...

Any1 know anything else about collective prayer/consciousness?

QUOTE(Aemeth @ Oct 26 2006, 03:02 PM) Any1 know anything else about collective prayer/consciousness?

you mean anyone besides me? /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

the best way i can say learn about collective prayer and consciousness is "go to bootcamp"

/cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" />

i go to swim practice...does that count? it's not quite boot camp, but swimming over 4 marathons in 2 weeks during winter training isn't a walk in the park...

Just so there isn't a misunderstanding...

Highlife you didn't offend me. My question was simply aiming at separating opinion from fact.

Fact is, we've never met, so you'll just have to trust in what I tell you happened.
Opinion is a personal interpretation on how or what we experienced.

I'm clarifying this because you might have missed the purpose of me raising that question. Your first thought might bring us back on track:
QUOTEIf some one on the moon with never a contact with another person were injected with some thing that would create the happy juice would they experience love or just be having a good day?Depending on the mixture?...they might be "touched by god". However that question requires further digging. Does this person have a language?, has he/she read?, does this person have ANY concept at all of a higher being? My point is, the "happy juice" I was refering to, like all drugs, requires a context. God is a concept passed down from generations. I assure you, without this context, our man on the moon, filled with happy juice might begin exploring his sexuality before he cries "hallelujah".

QUOTEFirst you become aware of god ..than you discover there is another way of seeing the world ..than you give yourself over to gods will ..than his view becomes your view. If all that takes place than your prayers will be in line with his will
You hit on what I was saying, but somehow missed my point. That's fine, I might not be the clearest of kats when I write. Let me break it down:

HOW did you become aware of god? try to think back as far as you can and see if you became aware of god or was it explained to you by an elder? be honest with yourself. I think you see what I'm getting at.

HOW do you give yourself to gods will? Apart from the bible, where is his will or purpose stated (again, outside of the bible or not quoting from it). The reason I ask is because, the god of old was arguably the most sadistic, capricious and spiteful being...has it been explained when exactly did his moody ass become a beacon of peace and universal love?. When did it become not so necessary to sacrifice newborns, firstborns, gays and adulterers? Not having this information makes me ask, how sure are you that he's the one to follow?

QUOTEYour prayers will become powerful when you allow god to change your desirers so that they perfectly correspond to his will for you.
My prayers were mostly selfish wants. By definition, a prayer for what you want and need, is selfish. My desires were stated and clear, and unchanging. The results were mixed, but I assure you; winning fights, getting the bottle to stop exactly pointing to the hottest girl, passing tests and conversely, not granting life to accident victims or family members, or even lessening their pain makes one think really hard about who the fuck up there is taking my order, you dig?

I understand why you think I'm just frustrated with the delivery time on prayers. I understand why you might think I asked for wishes from a genie. What I'm trying to make you see is: I DID get results, instantly even! just so happened to be regarding the stupid, selfish shit that all kids wish for. God spoiled me, in other words.
Somehow, the dude seemed to skip my neighbor two houses down altogether, losing his mom, all income and his dog at the tender age between 5 and 7 (roughly). Now, I didn't pray to stop any of it, but my mom apparently did. I'm wondering with such selflesness coming from a devout Catholic...what the fuck was I doing getting toys from god?
By the way, if it helps your argument along at all, I gave most of my Star Wars joints to him. If you somehow think that fills a fucking gaping hole as wide as he had, with used toys.

Your point about human carelessness and stuborness regarding where they choose to live or build is valid.
Still you're missing my point, though. They must've prayed. I might be jumping to pessimistic conclusions, but it looks to me like god doesn't see a problem in wiping thousands of lives, as if hosing an anthill to send a message. Seems like he hasn't really changed all that much then.

Have you read about all the young kids that went down on the beaches at Normandy?. Indeed fresh off the boat, straight into God's arms. Ever wondered what an 18 year-old's purpose might have been besides cannon fodder? So I'm wondering, what will your reasoning be when it turns out it's YOUR ass to bite it and you pray to god. Do you feel confident you've fulfilled your life's purpose? are you ready for any sort of event that will demand your life right now? what selfless act have you accomplished following this god, that would make you eligible for an extended pass?

..at ayhja...thanks


..x3n...Highlife you didn't offend me. My question was simply aiming at separating opinion from fact.

..me....I can try give you answers about how christianity works , but proof of gods existence is achieved by experience.... not words.

..x3n....HOW did you become aware of god? try to think back as far as you can and see if you became aware of god or was it explained to you by an elder? be honest with yourself. I think you see what I'm getting at.

.me.....I guess you¢¢¬¢ž¢re trying to say some one told me about him so thats why I believe. Well of course if you got rid of every trace of written or memorized religion we would be left wondering. I think man has always had a belief that some thing existed more powerful than himself .Whether your comfortable with that or not its been a part of who we are since cave man times. The process of getting to know god better is what has evolved. Your argument seems to be religion is god. I would say its the path to god.

..x3n....Apart from the bible, where is his will or purpose stated (again, outside of the bible or not quoting from it).

.me....You want me to explain christian belief without talking about christian belief ? Do you understand that each religion has its own interpretation of god ... his will...what he expects of you...how he views the world..how he wants you to move through it. Everything I say is based on the bible. I cant explain a religion I haven¢¢¬¢ž¢t amerced my self in .I would just be making assumptions. If you¢¢¬¢ž¢re speaking of his will for you as an individual than that can happen in many ways. The question becomes is it his will or yours thats speaking to you. Only through reading the bible do you become aware of how he sees things and thats when you start to understand the deference.

..x3n...HOW do you give yourself to gods will?

.me.....Honestly dont know how to explain that. I think if you have an interest in a religion than you study it and at some point it just becomes clear to you but you have to want it to happen.

..x3n....The reason I ask is because, the god of old was arguably the most sadistic, capricious and spiteful being...has it been explained when exactly did his moody ass become a beacon of peace and universal love?.

..me....Very funny .....put a smile on my face. .Depends on what religion your talking about doesnt it.Theres lots of them out there. In the old testament he did some things i dont understand but i would disagree with your assessment Read some of David¢¢¬¢ž¢s psalms and tell me god wasn¢¢¬¢ž¢t considered a beacon of hope. Do you think jews would have been jews if there religion didnt give them comfort in some way. Beyond that. from a christian view his moody ass become a beacon of peace and universal love when his son showed up and started a new relationship.
.
..x3n...My prayers were mostly selfish wants. By definition, a prayer for what you want and need, is selfish

.....me...Debatable...Is there deference between asking for help in how to feed your family verses asking for a bottle of booze. I see a diffeance between want and need.

..x3n.... My desires were stated and clear, and unchanging. The results were mixed, but I assure you; winning fights, getting the bottle to stop exactly pointing to the hottest girl, passing tests and conversely, not granting life to accident victims or family members, or even lessening their pain makes one think really hard about who the fuck up there is taking my order, you dig?

...me... ive already talked about this in 2 posts but ill say one more thing about prayer. Good prayers...

God give me strength to deal with this
God help me understand
God show me your will in this area of my life
God help me know how to help
God help me know what to say to ease this persons pain
.
I still cant figure out how you can claim god gave you all this stuff and than say he doesn¢¢¬¢ž¢t exist .Dont you see any problems with that logic? I cant explain the assumptions your making about prayer or god because there not a part of my religion. Its a system you have created for yourself. I think you got it in your head at some point that gods purpose was to grant wishes and physically save lives. I think we all wish that were true.

.,,x3n.... Your point about human carelessness and stubbornness regarding where they choose to live or build is valid.
Still you're missing my point, though. They must've prayed. I might be jumping to pessimistic conclusions, but it looks to me like god doesn't see a problem in wiping thousands of lives, ( with a tsunami) as if hosing an anthill to send a message. Seems like he hasn't really changed all that much then.

...me...You missed my point., Take a look back at my other post. I believe God created the laws that govern how the universe works .The earth is what it is and does what it does He gives us guidance not the earth. You have to believe he sent the tidal wave to think there was a message.

.. Do you feel confident you've fulfilled your life's purpose? are you ready for any sort of event that will demand your life right now? what selfless act have you accomplished following this god, that would make you eligible for an extended pass?

.Are your asking what have I done that god would intervean and add years to my life or what is requered to go to heaven.?. I believe we all have a time and place... when or why god would add years i dont know. As for accomplishments..... God doesnt give you a project that needs to be completed in order to be accepted by him.. Its not about getting to the end of the road its about being on the road. At the very least its about becoming familiar with gods path and becoming familiar with him To have worked with god and let him mold you in some way. Knowing him is whats important

.x3n....Prove god exists

.me...prove love exists

.x3n...So love is very real, but it's a scientifically verifiable emotional response. Chemically, it's almost identical to madness, or the core feelings that bring about compulsive disorders. The fact that science has defined it with it's own language, ....

.me...your saying it has been given a spacific chemical language so that proves it exists so i said.....
If some one on the moon with never a contact with another person were injected with some thing that would create the happy juice would they experience love or just be having a good day?..........what i was getting at was can you experience love without some one else ?

..x3n.........Depending on the mixture?...they might be "touched by god". However that question requires further digging. Does this person have a language?, has he/she read?, does this person have ANY concept at all of a higher being? My point is, the "happy juice" I was refering to, like all drugs, requires a context. God is a concept passed down from generations. I assure you, without this context, our man on the moon, filled with happy juice might begin exploring his sexuality before he cries "hallelujah".

.me......The mixture is the love chemicals you say prove it exists...the person has not met other peaple...he has created his own launguge ...and has never heard of god..I agree the result would be he discovers his sexuality or whatever his mind was on at the time..My point is love is more than chemicals so i dont agree with your chemical proof of love. .