ADN

I have worked a long time with the following idea:

Paul came as an apostle late in the game, almost as an afterthought. My thinking was that Judas actually was the one who was supposed to do what Paul did. That if he had not despaired and killed himself (at least in one version of his death), he would have been the one forgiven by Jesus and been the architect of the New Testament instead of (or along with, perhaps) Paul. It fits my view of the situation. Any comments?

Where do you get this idea that Judas would have been the one doing what Paul did? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible or in history. Judas was destined to betray Christ and that's what he did. Paul was destined to be the apostle to all Gentiles and that's what he did. I don't really see where you get your view from

Judas was not destined to kill himself...

No, but he was destined to betray Jesus

How can one destiny be separate from the other..?

One account of the garden of Eden has Adam and Eve trying multiple times to kill themselves after loosing the grace of God...I mean, honestly, if you piss off the Lord of Lords...Isn't killing yourself a given..?

Anyway...

I'm with the others Adtz...Show me the money baby...

Well if I understand Adtz correctly, he is not saying that Judas wasn't "destined" to betray Christ, he is saying that if he had not killed himself he could have done what Paul had done...

Regardless of my stance on Judas' free will relating to this, I am just saying the issue here (according to Adtz) is Judas' redemption after betraying Christ, not the act of betraying Christ himself.

Aemuth is exactly correct. Given the act of betrayal, could he have been forgiven?

The reason I came up with this is that there are a number of parallels between Judas and Saul (who became Paul). Both were Pharisees. Both were well educated. Both had specific expectations for the Messiah. The reason I find the question interesting is that I don't feel that God would condemn anyone with no chance of redemption. So if Judas was fated to betray Jesus, would it not be reasonable that if he had humbled himself and believed that he might have been forgiven?

The other thing is that Paul seems to fit "the slot" that Judas had better than the man chosen to replace him. We simply get a note of the replacement and nothing else.

It seems to me that Paul was as important as any apostle save Peter. So thus my thinking. This is, of course, completely hypothetical, but I've often wondered about this topic and it gives an interesting insight in to the concept of grace and redemption.

I still don't think that Judas would have done the work of Paul. Judas was destined to betray Christ and Paul was destined to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. They each had their own duty that they needed to accomplish and they did accomplish them

Isnt the whole consept anyone can be redeemed??

DUnno if he or Paul would've swapped jobs.

but I'm pretty sure Judas coul've been redeemed if not dead

I see this breaking down into a free will debate lol...