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As all sports fans know or anyone that is watching sportscenter, The Pats are under fire for 'sign stealing'...

If someone can tell me what the difference is between that and watching game film is, I'd sure like to know...I mean, honestly...How much of it impacts the game..? What are your guys' take on this..?

I think the big difference is what they are watching. Normal game film that are sent to each team from the league office are from whistle to tackle of every play. That way, they can learn from their opponents plays and tendencies on the field. What the Pats are accused of doing, is putting a camera on the coach. That way they can get the tendencies of the plays before the field. So when the Pat's coaches on the sidelines and look over to see how the coach is calling it, they can radio to their QB or their defensive captain (who also had a radio receiver) so they can set their play accordingly. Just like in poker, every coach as a tell of the plays they call. That's what the Pats were trying to find.

Yeah, but how can that help them win games..? Sure, its like an edge...But how much..? I mean, its not like they have cams in the locker rooms...Aren't they doing signs out in the open..? If I see a defensive coordinator over on the sideline making a motion...And the team blitzes...And I say, hey, they ran a blitz...So the next time I see the sign, I say, I think they may be running blitz...Is that a cheat..? How is it any different that game film..? A quarterback, for example, doesn't see the field the same way an offensive coordinator does...

I guess what I don't get is what's the proximity of the camera to these guys making the signs...You can know the blitz is coming, but you still have to block it...You can know they're playing cover 2, still got to make the play...And they're accused of stealing defensive signals...Which doesn't account for the Jets not being able to score, so...I understand its cheating, but what I'm asking is how much did it really affect the game..?

While it may not give you an absolute advantage, it would definitely help you out a little. If you know that the Jets are going to blitz, then you run a screen pass to Moss or do a 3-step Post route and you can burn defenses. Putting a camera on your opponents coaches would be able to help you out. Maybe not every play, but it's so much easier to defend against a blitz if you know it's coming ahead of time.

Related story: http://www.ayhja.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 67#p197967

Wow...I don't think it was bad enough to deserve that punishment, but I guess the image of the NFL has already taken enough damage image wise...Wow...

So I'm reading some things on ESPN about what exactly the Pats did and what's legal and not legal. Here are some of the interesting things I found:

Sources say there is only so much that can be gained by stealing signals. Generally, coaches want to know only two things about the defense: (1) When a blitz is coming; and (2) What kind of coverage the defense is going to play. That type of information can be gleaned easily from other forms -- legal forms -- of spying.

Along with using an assistant coach to chart signals during games, there is only one other common way teams steal signs -- by having somebody do it in advance. An NFC scout said that in scouting games of future opponents, all teams look for a number of things including injuries, personnel moves and signals. However, just as with having an assistant watch for signals during a game, that information is used generally for future preparation, not for current contests as the Patriots were apparently trying to do at halftime Sunday.

And even when teams do pick up those hints for future games, the impact may be minimal once the contest is under way.

Plus, there is no guarantee a team will capitalize when it knows what plays are coming. A pass can be dropped, a block missed or a snap fumbled. There also are these likelihoods: A team can change its signs frequently, which often happens in the NFL, or a coach can confuse his own players with too much information about opponents.Chiefs head coach Herm Edwards said stealing signals -- the legal way -- has become so widespread that most defensive coaches use elaborate systems to communicate with players.

"Just look at some of the middle linebackers now playing," Edwards said. "They're wearing huge wristbands with plays on them just like quarterbacks do. That's so they can look at a number on their wrists and know what the coach on the sideline wants to run. And of course, you have three different people sending in different signals so nobody can pick up on what you're doing. That's how crazy it has gotten."

That's from http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/s ... id=3017423

Week after week, NFL scouts seated in stadium press boxes train their binoculars on coaches responsible for sending in defensive plays via hand signals. They watch intently and whisper what they see into small audio recorders.

"Ten minutes left in the second quarter, third-and-7, right hand to shoulder, back down to hip, up to hat."

Scouts funnel these observations to their teams' offensive coaching staffs, hoping to link the opponents' defensive signals to specific blitzes, fronts and coverages.

It's all legal under NFL rules, with one stipulation: absolutely no video recordings allowed.

Still, there has been a concern in the league for the past couple of years about the escalation of spying based on the technology available.

Take, for example, the use of radio helmet technology that is supposed to cut off the communications between the sidelines and the quarterback when there are 15 seconds left on the play clock. Teams might seek to illegally extend that communication time through use of a walkie-talkie that taps into the radio frequency of the helmet. Thus, a late shift in defensive coverage could be relayed to the quarterback, who could then audible to an appropriate play.

And while teams can legally take still photos on each play that help in the in-game analysis of formations and alignments, the addition of illegal video might enhance that analysis and provide a faster processing time.

Existing rules entitle scouts to press box seats for games involving their teams' next two opponents. Scouts monitor hand signals for information that could help their coaching staffs during games, but it's unclear how much the information impacts the outcome of games.

"You can only talk [into the recorder] so fast and then to try to come up with the gestures they are doing, it's tough," an NFC scout said. "They do it fast. They are used to doing it, the linebackers are used to seeing it. Half the time I didn't get it."

Capturing hand signals on video would facilitate a more thorough analysis. Teams could more confidently differentiate between dummy signals and real ones by determining over time which ones correlated with on-field actions. Teams could show the video to players as a teaching tool. And they could make more informed adjustments, at least in theory.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/s ... id=3017542

That's all I'm saying...

There are, apparently, more, and even better ways to cheat, if that's what you were wanting to do, that are legal under NFL rules...I had my suspicions about that when i first heard the story, and that post just kinda confirms it...

I just don't see how they drew the line at cameras....I don't see how one method of gathering intelligence on a team is more prevalent than another, especially in this instance...And a smart coach is aware that signs can be stolen...This is just blows IMO...

I wonder how hard it would be to listen in on the radio communication between the coach and the QB? Certainly the NSA could do it, I imagine Belichek could pull it off. And it would be harder to spot than a video camera on the sidelines...

As for listening to the radio communication, the Pats are accused of using high powered microphones to listen in on the coaches.

Man, I really don't care too much about this video thing because the Pats showed today that they are legit. They lit up the Chargers with their offense and their defense and special teams had some huge plays. I wouldn't be surprised to see them go undefeated this year - I'm serious