ADN

So I came across this video, and thought it deserved its own thread.

It's well documented all up and down the sports section how big of a fan I am of this dude.... but this video raises a question for me.


In terms of offensive skill set...is Kobe the greatest of all time? Are we witnessing the most skilled player to ever play the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g

Man, dl1 probably hates this topic, lol...

Man, I don't think I've witnessed a player as talented as Kobe...I mean, when you're a fan of the game and learn to observe subtleties....Anticipation at its highest level, you can't argue with Kobe...I mean, on default, people are going to throw MJ out there just because they know that they can and will get a lot of back up for it...

But pound for pound, Kobe would probably own MJ in a a game of one on one in their primes...Man, Kobe gave away 40 pounds to Carmello, probably 70 to Lebron, an he guards both on a regular...Both of them, gifted players in their own right, acknowledge that Kobe is that dude...

That summer Kobe hurt his right hand, he spent the offseason shooting jumpers left handed...In the all star game, he banked about a 15-18 footer off the glass, left handed...He shoots the pull up, fade away 3 pointer...Who else does that, I mean, honestly..? MJ never did that shit...I'm not saying he couldn't...Just that he didn't...

I don't know what someone arguing against might say, but I'd be glad to read it...

See, a lot of what I've heard about MJ as it pertains to Kobe in the G.O.A.T. arguments fall along the lines of "but dude was so competitive, he would never let his team lose to the celtics like THAT"

'or other statements about his competitive nature and drive and his spectacular moves and finishes. A lot of people are even unwilling to speak on the topic at all, just saying "no one is better than MJ, etc" You can also bring up the rings, which is the only area where MJ has a clear cut advantage (that I'm willing to admit at least lol)

But in a pure talent perspective, I don't see how the nod doesn't go to Kobe.

When MJ was being voted in the HOF (his speech should be a topic in itself) they were playing a lot of his greatest games...and while he was able to dominate without question, he did not display the showcase of moves that Kobe does on a regular basis. He was much quicker than a lot of players, could raise up and dunk it with ease, often blew past a lot of players, down court or straight up...but to my knowledge he isn't doing pivots until he shakes his defender then stepping towards the basket, throwing it off teh backboard, and dunking it from there. That move wasn't flash, it was an excellent basketball play. He went from being stuck with a defender in front of him 15 feet from the basket to an easy uncontested dunk....Mike just used his athleticism to kill the guys he played again....Kobe has an incredible amount of skill, and I really see that difference when they play.

Jordan was a focal point for a generation of players today. His game has been aped by Kobe and other people. Remember when people were calling a draft pick Baby Jordan? Or when everyone thought Vince Carter was the next jordan?


Jordan was precision in everything he did because of his work ethic. Go look at his stats. When Jordan was first team all offense he was also first team all defense. He didn't take plays off. Also zone has made the game easier. Players now don't have to defend a super star every play. Jordan would take the the other teams best player. How many times has kobe done that.

Everything you can say Kobe has done jordan has done better and first.

Why do you think Kobe changed his number 24? He wants to be one better than Jordan The standard for 2 guards in the nba.


As arrogent as kobe is I even doubt he would say his game is better than Mike.

Mike carried a league on his back. For years Kobe was on a team with a potential hall of fame Center.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6WQLvRvtjs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWsfz5kMT5I

::sighs::

At what point did you address anything about their offensive skill sets?

I didn't ask who was a better player, I didn't ask who had a better legacy, I didn't ask who set the precedent for two gaurds. I asked who has the most skilled offensive game.

Not to mention...at lot of things you said are not only completely irrelevant to the discussion...but some of them were just false.

I don't know if you didn't watch much of the NBA back in the day, (and if you didn't, your views are completely understandable, because the media really has hyped it up as MJ's league) but there were WARS going on in MJ's time...Magic and Bird were both killing shit...the Pistons were a great, great team. The bulls were not the only team in the NBA for Jordan's whole career...he did a lot of losing before Krause formed a team around him.

And if we're going to talk about teammates, it's been widely discussed the Pippen was one of the best players to play the game...he's on of the 50 greatest of all time...Rodman's numbers speak for themselves, he was a straight GOON for years and years and years. He (Rodman) could probably still play an contribute today.

I seriously don't know who started this bullshit reason for Kobe's number change...one better than Jordan? It's foolish to even think someone would do that. He wore number 24 when he started out in High school....and then switched to 33 because his dad wore 33 in college. He was 24 before he was ever 8...and switched back because he wanted to change everything and start fresh after the Colorado thing.

To your defensive question....which shouldn't have even been brought up because this conversation is about offensive skill set....what are you talking about dude? Kobe always guards the other team's best player...he is a LOCK DOWN defender!

Since you wanna put up youtube clips, check some of these out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-JlvZfz ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ver7Oaen ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bHC0jKA ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT ... r_embedded

But, that's irrelevant. This is not a topic about who is better Jordan or Kobe....its about who has the best offensive skill set of all time.

-84 wrote:Also zone has made the game easier.

This works both ways Bro...Jordan didn't have to deal with the zone, which means he could murk every other guard in the league at will...Nobody was as physically gifted as MJ during the time, Kobe can hardly say the same...There is a 6'6" freak being born every minute these days...

Kobe scored 81 points...I watched that game, and the game before it, he could have had back to back 80 point games...MJ was lights out, but he didn't have the outside/inside game until late in his career, and even then, it wasn't to the level Kobe's is...

MJ certainly is the blueprint, no doubt...But I don't think there's much of a discussion as to which one is the more robust offensive player...I think it's safe to say that while MJ may have had guys to look up to, there was nobody in the league that would make him air apparent like there is for guys today...You grow up watching and if you are able to emulate MJ, you are already a step above everyone else...

Drew wrote:::sighs::

At what point did you address anything about their offensive skill sets?

I didn't ask who was a better player, I didn't ask who had a better legacy, I didn't ask who set the precedent for two gaurds. I asked who has the most skilled offensive game.

Not to mention...at lot of things you said are not only completely irrelevant to the discussion...but some of them were just false.

I don't know if you didn't watch much of the NBA back in the day, (and if you didn't, your views are completely understandable, because the media really has hyped it up as MJ's league) but there were WARS going on in MJ's time...Magic and Bird were both killing shit...the Pistons were a great, great team. The bulls were not the only team in the NBA for Jordan's whole career...he did a lot of losing before Krause formed a team around him.

And if we're going to talk about teammates, it's been widely discussed the Pippen was one of the best players to play the game...he's on of the 50 greatest of all time...Rodman's numbers speak for themselves, he was a straight GOON for years and years and years. He (Rodman) could probably still play an contribute today.

I seriously don't know who started this bullshit reason for Kobe's number change...one better than Jordan? It's foolish to even think someone would do that. He wore number 24 when he started out in High school....and then switched to 33 because his dad wore 33 in college. He was 24 before he was ever 8...and switched back because he wanted to change everything and start fresh after the Colorado thing.

To your defensive question....which shouldn't have even been brought up because this conversation is about offensive skill set....what are you talking about dude? Kobe always guards the other team's best player...he is a LOCK DOWN defender!

Since you wanna put up youtube clips, check some of these out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-JlvZfz ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ver7Oaen ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bHC0jKA ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT ... r_embedded

But, that's irrelevant. This is not a topic about who is better Jordan or Kobe....its about who has the best offensive skill set of all time.

I live in michigan and a bulls fan. I saw the battles MJ had with dumars. Pippen was a great number 2. Shaq is a legit Hall of fame center. What did pippen do in portland when he was the man?

You make it seem like because jordan made it look easy that his offensive game is somehow weaker to kobe's more agressive looking game. Look at videos of jordan. Tell me one thing on the offensive end Kobe has done that Jordan didn't do beforehand. The patented jordan fadaway? Dunking from the freethrow line? The dunking between his legs.
I don't see a single aspect of Kobe's game that was better than Jordan's. You really honestly gonna tell me that Kobe didn't pattern his game after MJ.

Kumicho wrote:

-84 wrote:Also zone has made the game easier.

This works both ways Bro...Jordan didn't have to deal with the zone, which means he could murk every other guard in the league at will...Nobody was as physically gifted as MJ during the time, Kobe can hardly say the same...There is a 6'6" freak being born every minute these days...

Kobe scored 81 points...I watched that game, and the game before it, he could have had back to back 80 point games...MJ was lights out, but he didn't have the outside/inside game until late in his career, and even then, it wasn't to the level Kobe's is...

MJ certainly is the blueprint, no doubt...But I don't think there's much of a discussion as to which one is the more robust offensive player...I think it's safe to say that while MJ may have had guys to look up to, there was nobody in the league that would make him air apparent like there is for guys today...You grow up watching and if you are able to emulate MJ, you are already a step above everyone else...

You act as if Clyde didn't play or magic didn't play when Jordan played. Darryl Dawkins was shattering rims before Shaq was.
Every Generation is going to have its freaks of nature. Your argument comes down to old players suck while new players are better.

For example people use this argument when talking about football running backs. Yet these same people forget that football back then was way more violent than it is now. Go listen to Deacon Jones. Back then you could punch people in the groin or slap people in the head to get to qb. People could take out your knees without out a thought. Dudes look at qb nowadays and get a pentality.

Jordan having not played in the zone had to gaurd his player all game. There was no zone he could fall back into to take a play off. When Mike played Clyde he had to play him all game. There was no rolling the coverage or using the zone to box Clyde in. It was man vs man.

Also I watched that game vs. Carmelo He did not guard him all game. On big plays he was there but not every play.

So let me ask you. From one fan to another. How are we grading someone as THE GOAT. Is it stats? Rings? Youtube clips that people paste together?

If you rightly say the MJ was the blueprint for 2 guards moving forward how do not say he is not the GOAT?

Like Jay said on BP3, what we really talking about?

I've already defined what we're talking about in the opening of the topic.

I clearly asked....who is the greatest of all time in terms of offensive skill set.

That has nothing to do with rings, teammates, accolades, or media coverage...or defense...

This thread is not who is the greatest of all time, and it was a silly title to have, because the discussion seems to always inevitably turn there when we're trying to focus it on one aspect of the game, but rather offensive skill set, sheer talent and know-how with the ball in your hands and without it to an extent.

It doesn't matter who did what first...its about who does it best. Michael Jordan didn't invent the dunk, I don't see you talking about him patterning his style after anyone...even though he's quoted on many occasions as saying he styled his game after David Thompson and Dr. J. Why are you not trying to diminish Jordan because he learned from and idolized someone else?

Having an idol doesn't make them eternally greater. Now that may be the case with most people and Jordan, because the dude is (as it stands right now) the GOAT...but it doesn't take anything away from what current players are doing now.

And since when is there this idea that the zone benefits certain players and not others? It's easier for Kobe to play in the zone because he can sleep in it on defense and save his energy for offense... Can't the same be said about he players he has to guard? Doesn't Lebron get to sleep in the same zone and save his energy too? It's a cycle that effects everyone. In my personal experience, and I know this can't be proven or anything...but I've found it much more tiring to play in a complex zone against a set play than it is to just play man. Now if we are talking about that in terms of the best players to ever play the game, its clearly going to be a different story....but I'm not sure how that's even a valid argument against Kobe, considering when he's going against a zone, he has more than one person to beat on every play.

You posit that playing a zone is easier on the defense, which to me would make it seem like its harder on the offense...how is that not a credit then to Kobe's offensive abilities, knowing he is playing against a zone that is (most times) designed specifically to stop him? That's not to say that teams didn't put together strategies to stop Jordan...but its easier to isolate someone in a zone than it is man v man.


Hell, I was born in the Chicago land area and have lived here all my life, believe me I know all about Jordan hysteria...and I also know that the media has really made him out to be this mythical figure that no one is even worthy of being mentioned in the same breath with. But dude was human, and his game wasn't perfect.... I'm not saying Kobe's is...but the first step in realizing that other people may be close (or even better) at certain aspects is just to nullify this notion that Jordan is a God of some sort. I know that's not what you're saying directly, but that idea is out there...and it unfairly affects everyone playing now days.

Pippen was a great number 2. Shaq is a legit Hall of fame center. What did pippen do in portland when he was the man?

LOL at your knock on Pippen.... that can't be serious. You obviously have zero idea what you're talking about if you're going to make that type of statement about Pip.


First off....Pip, like Shaq...is gonna be a first ballot HOF. So I don't know what statement you're trying to make by saying Shaq is a future HOF, but not saying it about Pip.


And you think the way to accurately test Pip's legacy is to view what he did in Portland....when he was 13 years in the league? That's like putting Shaq's legacy on what he does with Cleveland this year...and trying to say thats all that matters.

Why don't you look at what Pippen did when he was in his prime, in the years that Jordan left.

Don't worry....I'll do that for you.


"Michael Jordan retired before the 1994 season, and in his absence Pippen emerged from Jordan's shadow. That year, he earned All-Star Game MVP honors and led the Bulls in scoring, assists, and the entire league in steals, averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, 1.9 three-pointers, and 0.8 blocks per game, while shooting 49.1% from the field and a career-best 32% from the three-point line. For his efforts, he earned the first of three straight All-NBA First Team nods, and finished third in the MVP voting. The Bulls finished the season with 55 wins, only two less than the year before."


No, but you're right...we should probably consider what he did in Portland to determine if he was ever capable....

Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows that Pippen was as vital to the Bull's success as Mike was...they just aren't going to win 6 championships without him....it isn't happening.

Nobody wins a championship on their own...its a team game. I've never understood the knock on Kobe for having Shaq, when it seems like most people forget Pippen even played...

Teams win championships. But that is all irrelevant to the discussion at hand....it's just one of my biggest pet peeves when people write Pippen off for whatever reason and wanna give it all to Mike....but then knock Kobe for winning with Shaq....


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