ADN

This question my be more or less for raum and jerk, but, what inportance if any would it be to know where satan fell?

Best question posed in VU that I can remember in WEEKS...

And I have NO idea how to answer it...Actually...Methaphorically...I just want to hear ideas tossed around...

Pulls up seat...

Waits for class to begin...

Well to me actually there is a balance between good and evil ie satan, like the ying yang. The falling of satan would need some one equally as powerful to replace him or else the world would be imbalanced and whether its imbalanced due to the good being not part of the equation or evil not being part of it, it would still lead to the ulimate destruction of our soceity as we know it.

I could be wrong but let us let raum get to us on this

"Satan" is a storybook villian in the mythos of Christianity.

In fact, every word in the Bible associated with "Satan" is a verb, and none of them are from common roots. That is because their were many angels who fell, and none of them are named any longer. The word Satan itself means to "resist or oppose." The reason is because his name is cast away from him. An angel's name is their definition.

The word "Strength" Gibor + AL = Gabriel - The strength of god.
The word "Healer" Rapha + AL = Raphael "The Healing of God"

The word

The Jews began to argue that a god who defies God would not be God, thus El is dropped, and the nameless one he is called,..though he is many... according to some Rabbin, all of them are all marked only by the word of their treachery - "Saw-tan." / a word meaning "defy, resist, oppose." Their names were cast away, because the minute they erred, their place in God's kingdom was forfeit. But some of us know what it was, and know the truth to this story.

It is around the kingdom of David that "El ha-satan El" arises as a actual being,.. through the logic of men and the duality of opposites.

"El ha-satan El" literally means "God who opposes God."

First time it is used in the Bible is in the story of David:

1 Chronicles 21:1:

The translation you are offered is:
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

It's not until the Greeks make their mark on all things Jewish, that satan become the Overlord of all evil and the Lord of the Damned. He becomes synonomous with Hades, who was known for his ability to grant visions of the future, and his ability to change into animals,.. thus satans gets new powers.

Thus, in the new Testament, we see a demi-god conquering The Lord of Evil... which is what Dionysus does, as does Lugh, as does even Baldur. It is the pinnacle of the Messianic traditions.

however, before the rise of the philosophy of the Messiach (redemption) ` there was the the Serpent.

That which rebelled against god and tempted man is the serpent. The name for the serpent is Nachash, the Canaanite word for "Lern from experience" or "grow wise through action." Thus it is also the word for "to learn a secret by divinitation, through stone reading, dreams, or omens."

The Catholics largely define everything you know about "Satan" and theirs was the idea was to engineer an advesary,.. and most of it is just folklore shrouded in pompous judgement. They took every story of defiance, or temptation they could find and it is as if they drew about them all a great circle of conjuring, and brought forth their Dark Lord; the invention of their own dark desires and secret lust for power..., and fed their spawn every soul that would not succomb to papal authority; so they could save them. Thus, the advesary of man and opposer of God, the unreigned nephesh, became a subtle elegant and delighfully wicked and dare I say "homo-erotic" image. Lovely, eh? :yuk:

vertical,
raum

Excellent...

You know, the more that I read and hang out here, the stronger and stronger I feel...Most of that information I knew, but I'm still not quite comfortable with expressing my knowledge of such things...What is clear, is that we must first seperate and define...And furthermore, bring some clarity to a subject that is already cloudy for many, including yours truly...But we must go one at a time, maximum discussion points in hand...


That makes sense about what you said, a great deal of sense, about an angel loosing their name...But you also mentioned another alias of the adversary, the serpent...

The Serpent was supposed to have been the tempter of Eve...Of course we know that this story is more or less metaphorical, mistranslated, etc...Right..? Yet, most believe that the devil was cast out, down much more recent, in fact, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that this took place last century...

So, before we can actually discuss "The Fall" and more so than a specific location, we need to make sure that we are talking about the same entity...

Ok...so Satan use to be Lucifer (Angel of Light), fell and lost his name along with tons of other angels. Right? The thing is, I've heard this story tons of times but I haven't heard any proof from the Bible that he fell? Is there?

Quick response, no, there's nothing in the Bible that says Satan fell. As Raum said, it's mostly Catholic myth that has become universalized into most of Christianity.

Lucifer is a retelling of the Myth of Prometheus, appearing globally under many guises...

The story of Lucifer predates the Christian Faith, and the current catholic church. He is a instrument in Gnosticism, and it is the redemption of his avarice and pride that causes Lucifer to be manifest as man, to become the Cristos.

In the oldest forms of Christianity, Lucifer and Satan ARE NOT THE SAME BEING. And Lucifer is not Satan's hidden name.,.. that is a roman translation of the title of the Cristos in one old form of Gnostic Christianity. Ha-Satan's name is hidden from all but those chosen to rhave it revealed unto them.

The Lucifer is a comepletely different being, from a completely diffferent mythos, which was popular among the essenes... but in Greek, his title is Phos Phoros, the root of the chemical periodic element of the same name It is this title that caused the Phos Phoros to be called "Luce Ferrum" (Bringer of the Light) Roman PseudoDionysus, who ditated the Heirarchy of Heaven to the Church, in his doctrine "The Celestial Heirarchy."

Look even to Loki, who is chained in hell for his indisgressions against the Aesir and their all-father Odin. You find remnants of this story, which predates witten words.

It is not in the Bible that such a story appears... but there is much in the Bible you would never know unless you could read it. And it is not all stories. and MUCH is taken out or obscured...

Look to the book of Job and see wherein Satan freely enters heaven at his leave, to have word with God. Ha-Satan is a being with purpose, and the blind Christians who seek to throw the brimstone out with the fire are laughable in their attempt to discount all sensory pleasure to him and "his minions."

As far as the fall, i wrote so much on that subject in a previous thread, which is probably in the archives.

vertical,
raum

Catholics do loooooove them some hellfire, boy...loooove it! and Satan is imprinted in EVERYTHING the followers do if the church looked down upon it. Questions?...Satan did it, doubts?, yup...rebellion?, work of the devil, workers uprising?...that's right.
Satan, he ended up being a helluva lot more practical than the Virgin Mary in all of her 1000 incarnations