An assesment of skills vs natural talent...
Now that I have seen more than a handful of games of the two, I can say it with confidence...Carmello's game, at this point, is more refined, and smooth...Dude has more moves than Exlax...A nifty crossover, spin moves, back to the basket midrange and perimeter game...I mean damn...Carmello has more skill, LeBron has more natural talent...As a matter of fact:
Carmello > D. Wade > LeBron
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AYHJA
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Lost Ghost
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Putting King James last could quite possibily cost you all your credibility my man....
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AYHJA
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I could probably stand to loose some credibility, but I won't loose it talking about this...You, more than anybody, should know this...
I didn't say Lebron couldn't ball...We are talking upper tier, young NBA players...It's not like I put:
Donyell Marshall > Wally Szerbiak > Lebron James
I didn't compare a car to a bike and a skateboard...I compared a Viper to a Corvette and a Mustang...Put your perspective on the conversation Homez...However it is you rank the value of a player is one thing...Stats..? Coaching..? However you wish to approach it, it can be debated...
I've already said why I think Carmello is better than LeBron...D. Wade is a 1/2 guard that shoots 50% from the field, averages almost 30 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, and 2 steals...Aside from a few other players like Kobe, I'm not sure anybody can check him...He does his thing no matter who is guarding him...So, while it may be up for debate, that is not bogus, totally assuming point of view...
Speaking of which, I dont' recall your establishing any point of view on the matter..?
I didn't say Lebron couldn't ball...We are talking upper tier, young NBA players...It's not like I put:
Donyell Marshall > Wally Szerbiak > Lebron James
I didn't compare a car to a bike and a skateboard...I compared a Viper to a Corvette and a Mustang...Put your perspective on the conversation Homez...However it is you rank the value of a player is one thing...Stats..? Coaching..? However you wish to approach it, it can be debated...
I've already said why I think Carmello is better than LeBron...D. Wade is a 1/2 guard that shoots 50% from the field, averages almost 30 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, and 2 steals...Aside from a few other players like Kobe, I'm not sure anybody can check him...He does his thing no matter who is guarding him...So, while it may be up for debate, that is not bogus, totally assuming point of view...
Speaking of which, I dont' recall your establishing any point of view on the matter..?
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Lost Ghost
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Whoa...let me get this straight....You have Melo ahead of Wade and Bron because you like his spin move? Dude...thats some kiddy shit...
Let's talk statistics...thats where we judge who is king of the hill in every sport...including basketball...and thats how it's always been done...and lets not leave too much out
Points
LJ: 30.7
DW: 27.6
CA: 26.9
Advantadge: King James....but the difference between Wade and Melo is insignificant
FG%
LJ: .472
DW: .497
CA: .485
Advantadge: Wade
3 FG%
LJ: .331
DW: .176
CA: .227
Advantadge: LJ......and in fact...out of the top 50 scorers in the NBA who have attempted more than 5 3-pointers this year...Wade has the lowest percentage of them all.... So..you can say what you want about his % from the field...but when he steps back a couple feet....its not going down at all....
Rebounds
LJ: 7.2
DW: 5.8
CA: 5.2
Advantadge: James again....by quite a bit too
Assists
LJ: 6.7
DW: 6.8
CA: 2.7
Advantadge: Wade....but in reality the difference is negliable....but considering Wade plays point sometimes..and James never does.....it really reflects the overall game yes?....and the more we continue...the more it looks like Carmelo shouldn't even be in the mix...
Steals
LJ: 1.5
DW: 1.9
CA: 1.1
Advantadge: Wade.....but they're all pretty close here.
Double-Doubles
LJ: 19
DW: 16
CA: 6
Advantadge: Lebron..
Triple- Doubles
LJ: 5
DW: 2
CA: 0
Advantadge: Lebron..
Efficiency (I'm not really sure how this is calculated)
LJ: 28.9
DW: 27.5
CA: 21.3
Advantadge: King James
Looking at the statistics....LeBron James lives up to his nickname as the King, by taking 6 out of 9 of the categories..Wade takes 3 so I can understand how people might prefer him as a player if they're picking a team...but to say that he is better than James based on stats is false
....and to even utter Melo's name in the mix as far as statistics go is just ridiculous...he doesn't even compare....didn't win a single category..and was 2nd in only 2....the rest he was last..sometimes by a long shot..
But no....you went one further and said he was better than both Wade AND James.....because you think he's got a nice looking back to the basket move and crossover?
Thats baby-stuff and opinionated garbage...... You better come with more than that if you plan to convince me or anyone that your Melo > Wade > James theory is gonna hold up....
The real list is James > Wade > Melo....and if you don't believe me....check the stats up above......
Let's talk statistics...thats where we judge who is king of the hill in every sport...including basketball...and thats how it's always been done...and lets not leave too much out
Points
LJ: 30.7
DW: 27.6
CA: 26.9
Advantadge: King James....but the difference between Wade and Melo is insignificant
FG%
LJ: .472
DW: .497
CA: .485
Advantadge: Wade
3 FG%
LJ: .331
DW: .176
CA: .227
Advantadge: LJ......and in fact...out of the top 50 scorers in the NBA who have attempted more than 5 3-pointers this year...Wade has the lowest percentage of them all.... So..you can say what you want about his % from the field...but when he steps back a couple feet....its not going down at all....
Rebounds
LJ: 7.2
DW: 5.8
CA: 5.2
Advantadge: James again....by quite a bit too
Assists
LJ: 6.7
DW: 6.8
CA: 2.7
Advantadge: Wade....but in reality the difference is negliable....but considering Wade plays point sometimes..and James never does.....it really reflects the overall game yes?....and the more we continue...the more it looks like Carmelo shouldn't even be in the mix...
Steals
LJ: 1.5
DW: 1.9
CA: 1.1
Advantadge: Wade.....but they're all pretty close here.
Double-Doubles
LJ: 19
DW: 16
CA: 6
Advantadge: Lebron..
Triple- Doubles
LJ: 5
DW: 2
CA: 0
Advantadge: Lebron..
Efficiency (I'm not really sure how this is calculated)
LJ: 28.9
DW: 27.5
CA: 21.3
Advantadge: King James
Looking at the statistics....LeBron James lives up to his nickname as the King, by taking 6 out of 9 of the categories..Wade takes 3 so I can understand how people might prefer him as a player if they're picking a team...but to say that he is better than James based on stats is false
....and to even utter Melo's name in the mix as far as statistics go is just ridiculous...he doesn't even compare....didn't win a single category..and was 2nd in only 2....the rest he was last..sometimes by a long shot..
But no....you went one further and said he was better than both Wade AND James.....because you think he's got a nice looking back to the basket move and crossover?
Thats baby-stuff and opinionated garbage...... You better come with more than that if you plan to convince me or anyone that your Melo > Wade > James theory is gonna hold up....
The real list is James > Wade > Melo....and if you don't believe me....check the stats up above......
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AYHJA
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Ahh, the old LG returns again...I was wondering how long it'd be before you returned...Welcome back...To talk some "kiddie" shit, no less..
QUOTE('Lost Ghost)Let's talk statistics...thats where we judge who is king of the hill in every sport"
Is it..? Damn I would have never guessed...Wonder why I've never heard mention of Kareem being the best player to ever play the game of basketball, the most dominant, the center everyone has on their all time team...And in all sports he says...Great, then you can have Drew Bledsoe AND Vinny Testaverde, I'll take Joe Montana...
FUCK SKILLS...
They are irrelevant...Lets just talk stats...Much more accurate gauge of a players worth...Let me ask you a few questions...You'll probably not answer them, just go off on another tangent, but oh well...Must try...
1. SCORING -- Are Lebron's stats...THAT much of a stretch than Carmello's..? Are you aware that the +230 more shots LeBron has taken vs Carmello's total (The only person to take more shots than him is Kobe, and I bet you think LeBron is in his league, don't you?), and at a lower percentage mind you, only translate to a 4.2 scoring difference..? Meaning, that if Mello took as many shots as Bron.......You're good @ math, right..?
2. REBOUNDING -- No shock there, bigger, stronger Bron gets more than Mello...But ahh...Lets see here...Lebron averages .9 offensive RPG, to Mello's 1.6...Interesting...But even more interesting...Is that I bet you didn't know that the leading defensive rebouder in the league (@ 9 pg, 12 tot) AND #1 shot blocker was Marcus Camby...But no, those things don't effect the flow of a game at all...And then again, 2 rebounds is a huge stretch anyways...
3. ASSISTS -- Yeah..See...Um...Bron is what you might call a 'Point Forward', the offense runs through him...So while his 6.7 assists is nice, and dude is a helluva passer, you might want to consider the fact that some teams run their offense through a position known as "Point" Guard...Denver has one, and he averages 8.8 a game...So, all things considered...If the offense ran through Mello...You really think he couldn't get a few more assists..?
I could go on and on, but I know the A.D.D. is about to kick in, so I won't...Your statistic talk means about as much to me in this argument as Vince Young's Wunderlick score...Stats are good tools, yes, but in the context of what we are talking about, I'm gonna have to ask you to please step the fuck back and realize that I'm not some kid at school that you punk in a debate because you have a rep...Shit don't work on me homez, I'll be inclined to tear you a new one everytime....So, if you want to keep talking at me, rather than to me, be my guest...We can futher establish the fact that I'm a grown man, and I talk and think like one, or this can go the distance...
Your call...
Melo > Wade > James
Kiddie Talk Corner:
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)but to say that he is better than James based on stats is false
Who said that..? Arguing shit that was never said... -1
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)You have Melo ahead of Wade and Bron because you like his spin move?
Reach back into one of my posts again and deface what I said, and I shall surely destroy you every chance I get... -3
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)considering Wade plays point sometimes and James never does....
Already called you on your bullshit, that offense is ran through Bron...Everyone who watches basketball knows this...Speaking of "credibility"........ - 5
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)Thats baby-stuff and opinionated garbage..
Dummy....... -10
QUOTE('Lost Ghost)Let's talk statistics...thats where we judge who is king of the hill in every sport"
Is it..? Damn I would have never guessed...Wonder why I've never heard mention of Kareem being the best player to ever play the game of basketball, the most dominant, the center everyone has on their all time team...And in all sports he says...Great, then you can have Drew Bledsoe AND Vinny Testaverde, I'll take Joe Montana...
FUCK SKILLS...
They are irrelevant...Lets just talk stats...Much more accurate gauge of a players worth...Let me ask you a few questions...You'll probably not answer them, just go off on another tangent, but oh well...Must try...
1. SCORING -- Are Lebron's stats...THAT much of a stretch than Carmello's..? Are you aware that the +230 more shots LeBron has taken vs Carmello's total (The only person to take more shots than him is Kobe, and I bet you think LeBron is in his league, don't you?), and at a lower percentage mind you, only translate to a 4.2 scoring difference..? Meaning, that if Mello took as many shots as Bron.......You're good @ math, right..?
2. REBOUNDING -- No shock there, bigger, stronger Bron gets more than Mello...But ahh...Lets see here...Lebron averages .9 offensive RPG, to Mello's 1.6...Interesting...But even more interesting...Is that I bet you didn't know that the leading defensive rebouder in the league (@ 9 pg, 12 tot) AND #1 shot blocker was Marcus Camby...But no, those things don't effect the flow of a game at all...And then again, 2 rebounds is a huge stretch anyways...
3. ASSISTS -- Yeah..See...Um...Bron is what you might call a 'Point Forward', the offense runs through him...So while his 6.7 assists is nice, and dude is a helluva passer, you might want to consider the fact that some teams run their offense through a position known as "Point" Guard...Denver has one, and he averages 8.8 a game...So, all things considered...If the offense ran through Mello...You really think he couldn't get a few more assists..?
I could go on and on, but I know the A.D.D. is about to kick in, so I won't...Your statistic talk means about as much to me in this argument as Vince Young's Wunderlick score...Stats are good tools, yes, but in the context of what we are talking about, I'm gonna have to ask you to please step the fuck back and realize that I'm not some kid at school that you punk in a debate because you have a rep...Shit don't work on me homez, I'll be inclined to tear you a new one everytime....So, if you want to keep talking at me, rather than to me, be my guest...We can futher establish the fact that I'm a grown man, and I talk and think like one, or this can go the distance...
Your call...
Melo > Wade > James
Kiddie Talk Corner:
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)but to say that he is better than James based on stats is false
Who said that..? Arguing shit that was never said... -1
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)You have Melo ahead of Wade and Bron because you like his spin move?
Reach back into one of my posts again and deface what I said, and I shall surely destroy you every chance I get... -3
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)considering Wade plays point sometimes and James never does....
Already called you on your bullshit, that offense is ran through Bron...Everyone who watches basketball knows this...Speaking of "credibility"........ - 5
QUOTE(Lost Ghost)Thats baby-stuff and opinionated garbage..
Dummy....... -10
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Lost Ghost
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So...you've made excuses as to why 3 categories that LeBron beats Melo in are void in your opinion....and I'm still supposed to believe that Melo is better....based on what?
Seriously...can you give me 3 concrete reasons...not opinion based....as to why Carmelo is better than LeBron?
Saying you like Melo's game better...and telling me that you don't believe some of the stuff I posted in no way shape or form demonstrates your point that Melo is better.....
I am talking to you....I have a tendancy to come off as if it's the other way....its all love.....
be real....if I came out and said that I think Melo is better because he's got a nice crossover...a nice spinmove...and some nice moves and shots from all over........you'd bust out stats and prove otherwise.....
If stats aren't the controlled gauge as to who is better at the momment...what is?
Seriously...can you give me 3 concrete reasons...not opinion based....as to why Carmelo is better than LeBron?
Saying you like Melo's game better...and telling me that you don't believe some of the stuff I posted in no way shape or form demonstrates your point that Melo is better.....
I am talking to you....I have a tendancy to come off as if it's the other way....its all love.....
be real....if I came out and said that I think Melo is better because he's got a nice crossover...a nice spinmove...and some nice moves and shots from all over........you'd bust out stats and prove otherwise.....
If stats aren't the controlled gauge as to who is better at the momment...what is?
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AYHJA
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I've already said why, and apparently that's not good enough...
Stats are nice, but they mean nothing if you don't reference them in context, and that is something that I have never, ever done...If I talk stats, they are relating DIRECTLY to on field performance...If I haven't seen, I shut the fuck up, recall the NCAA best player discussion...I would never go through and talk and pull shit out of my ass without good reason...
Again, to summarize my point, Bron is in a better position to have those numbers...I feel that if their postions were switched, Melo was on the Cavs and vice versa, Carmello could put up the same numbers...And as the stats suggest, they are not that far off....Do you feel otherwise..? Then say so...If you look back at our arguments, there is something missing in everyone one of your rebuttals...
When the best clash at the top, there has to be more than stats...A Kobe vs MJ discussion is null and void if we are talking simply stats...That disucssion would quickly move to an assesment of the skill set between the two...The changes in the game, their teams....Any 'greatest of' conversation has these things, and if you're going to talk them, how about you do so..?
I am saying that I have now seen enough of LeBron and Carmello to check out their game, and I like Carmello's game better...I think it is more refined, versatile, and smoother than LeBron's...YES, that is an opinion...And I thought I gave decent enough evidence to say why...Given both of their stats and current situations, why would you say that was bogus..?
I don't talk stats like that...We talkin' greatest running back ever, I draw a statline, and I talk about the footage I've seen, the era, and the game at the time (context)...
We talking about the greatest boxer ever, I talk about their record as a pro, the fights that I've seen, their opponents, and the physical skills they have...
We talking great NCAA running back in '05, I draw a statline, talk about the games that I've seen, the situations, and the context of them...
We talking great young NBA players, I ______, talk ________, the _______, and the __________....
It's call forming a good, well based opinion...Get it..? I hope so...Our discussions would go alot better if you did...But, either way, like you said, it IS love...
Stats are nice, but they mean nothing if you don't reference them in context, and that is something that I have never, ever done...If I talk stats, they are relating DIRECTLY to on field performance...If I haven't seen, I shut the fuck up, recall the NCAA best player discussion...I would never go through and talk and pull shit out of my ass without good reason...
Again, to summarize my point, Bron is in a better position to have those numbers...I feel that if their postions were switched, Melo was on the Cavs and vice versa, Carmello could put up the same numbers...And as the stats suggest, they are not that far off....Do you feel otherwise..? Then say so...If you look back at our arguments, there is something missing in everyone one of your rebuttals...
When the best clash at the top, there has to be more than stats...A Kobe vs MJ discussion is null and void if we are talking simply stats...That disucssion would quickly move to an assesment of the skill set between the two...The changes in the game, their teams....Any 'greatest of' conversation has these things, and if you're going to talk them, how about you do so..?
I am saying that I have now seen enough of LeBron and Carmello to check out their game, and I like Carmello's game better...I think it is more refined, versatile, and smoother than LeBron's...YES, that is an opinion...And I thought I gave decent enough evidence to say why...Given both of their stats and current situations, why would you say that was bogus..?
I don't talk stats like that...We talkin' greatest running back ever, I draw a statline, and I talk about the footage I've seen, the era, and the game at the time (context)...
We talking about the greatest boxer ever, I talk about their record as a pro, the fights that I've seen, their opponents, and the physical skills they have...
We talking great NCAA running back in '05, I draw a statline, talk about the games that I've seen, the situations, and the context of them...
We talking great young NBA players, I ______, talk ________, the _______, and the __________....
It's call forming a good, well based opinion...Get it..? I hope so...Our discussions would go alot better if you did...But, either way, like you said, it IS love...
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Lost Ghost
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You're acting as though the reason the Cav's offense runs through LeBron because it is designed to go through a small forward..... it goes through LeBron because he's that type of player...the type who if the ball is in his hands....he's gonna do something good with it.
You're telling me that if Melo and LeBron switched teams..... the Nuggets wouldn't run the offense through him? and you're also telling me that the Nuggets don't run it through Melo?
The whole thing is....I've seen Melo play....the man can ball his ass off....I wish he played for my team.....I'm still mad that the Pistons took fucking Darko over him......but LeBron is just unstoppable..... So I guess I'll even agree with your statement of Melo is more skilled.....but LeBron's natural talent...along with his abilities to me, makes him the better player.
I've watched plenty Cav's games......whenever he touches the ball...its as if he can do WHATEVER he wants with it......like..theres no one who is gonna stop him from doing what he wants to do.....I think once he fine tunes what he wants to do to be something that will make his team more successful....He'll be one of the best players ever in the game.
One thing I really don't understand...is why you're putting Wade over Lebron as well..considering the reason you spoke so highly of wade was his stats....along with the fact that you dont think anyone can check him in the league....when LeBron has better numbers....is taller..and therefore creates an even harder matchup for defenders......Again...Wade's one helluva ball player...and say what you want about Shaq...but the offense runs through Wade down in Miami....so they're in comparable slots...the only real difference being position....
I've seen a good number of games of each of the 3......Wade worries me everytime he touches the ball....but so does LeBron. I think Melo is the most defined and skilled of the 3.....but that also has the potential to make him the least explosive.....its that out-of-control...drive to the basket...draw the foul and hit the shot that makes Wade dangerous every possession.....
I dunno......I was a Melo guy......but after watching them all play....LeBron is my guy.....
You're telling me that if Melo and LeBron switched teams..... the Nuggets wouldn't run the offense through him? and you're also telling me that the Nuggets don't run it through Melo?
The whole thing is....I've seen Melo play....the man can ball his ass off....I wish he played for my team.....I'm still mad that the Pistons took fucking Darko over him......but LeBron is just unstoppable..... So I guess I'll even agree with your statement of Melo is more skilled.....but LeBron's natural talent...along with his abilities to me, makes him the better player.
I've watched plenty Cav's games......whenever he touches the ball...its as if he can do WHATEVER he wants with it......like..theres no one who is gonna stop him from doing what he wants to do.....I think once he fine tunes what he wants to do to be something that will make his team more successful....He'll be one of the best players ever in the game.
One thing I really don't understand...is why you're putting Wade over Lebron as well..considering the reason you spoke so highly of wade was his stats....along with the fact that you dont think anyone can check him in the league....when LeBron has better numbers....is taller..and therefore creates an even harder matchup for defenders......Again...Wade's one helluva ball player...and say what you want about Shaq...but the offense runs through Wade down in Miami....so they're in comparable slots...the only real difference being position....
I've seen a good number of games of each of the 3......Wade worries me everytime he touches the ball....but so does LeBron. I think Melo is the most defined and skilled of the 3.....but that also has the potential to make him the least explosive.....its that out-of-control...drive to the basket...draw the foul and hit the shot that makes Wade dangerous every possession.....
I dunno......I was a Melo guy......but after watching them all play....LeBron is my guy.....
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AYHJA
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I just revere skill more, I guess...Its not like there is this great distance between the three..I got love for freakish athletes, but I personally prefer players that hone their skill...Like Kobe...He is definitely talented, but but I'd say Vince Carter is a better physical specimen, but be damn if Kobe isn't just light years ahead of dude...
Ionno, something about LeBron just says "Kevin Garnett" to me...That really nice, solid guy, but that's it...I think there's a visible difference between him and Melo, in that Carmello seems more comfortable playing, like the game comes to him a little slower...And like I said, dude is crazy nice with his handle and moves...It all boils down to style for me, Melo's game suits me better...But again, I don't just see no tremendous distance between them to be like "he is definitely better", they are pretty much scoring style points...
Bron is putting up crazy numbers, yes, but percentage wise, he is on par w/the other two...When Bron comes into his own mentally, I think he'll be a much more potent player...But I think that right now, he may be feeling too much a burden, when you damn near the leading rebouder, scorer, and assist man on your squad from the 3 spot...Damn...Melo has the luxury of excellent front court teammates...
And D Wade is just nasty...The 3's are atrocious yes, but...Think about what his percentage would be if he didn't take any...His FG% is crazy, and he's HORRIBLE from he arc...That mean dude is probably realistically making 6 or 7 out of every 10 shots within the arc...That's crazy...And he's a top notch, nice ass defender, all NBA 2nd team...If his outside shot was better, in my eyes it'd be Wade > Melo > Bron...Lebron creates no more matchup issues, he's a true 3, and can guard and check 3's and some 2's on raw athleticism...Wade can effective guard and play both the 1 and the 2...He's 6'4", 212...And leads the league in free throw attempts...Despite not being a 3pt threat...That mean that he get the rock, you know he likely not gonna shoot the 3, and he still knockin' down 65%..?
You said it, that's some scary shit...
Ionno, something about LeBron just says "Kevin Garnett" to me...That really nice, solid guy, but that's it...I think there's a visible difference between him and Melo, in that Carmello seems more comfortable playing, like the game comes to him a little slower...And like I said, dude is crazy nice with his handle and moves...It all boils down to style for me, Melo's game suits me better...But again, I don't just see no tremendous distance between them to be like "he is definitely better", they are pretty much scoring style points...
Bron is putting up crazy numbers, yes, but percentage wise, he is on par w/the other two...When Bron comes into his own mentally, I think he'll be a much more potent player...But I think that right now, he may be feeling too much a burden, when you damn near the leading rebouder, scorer, and assist man on your squad from the 3 spot...Damn...Melo has the luxury of excellent front court teammates...
And D Wade is just nasty...The 3's are atrocious yes, but...Think about what his percentage would be if he didn't take any...His FG% is crazy, and he's HORRIBLE from he arc...That mean dude is probably realistically making 6 or 7 out of every 10 shots within the arc...That's crazy...And he's a top notch, nice ass defender, all NBA 2nd team...If his outside shot was better, in my eyes it'd be Wade > Melo > Bron...Lebron creates no more matchup issues, he's a true 3, and can guard and check 3's and some 2's on raw athleticism...Wade can effective guard and play both the 1 and the 2...He's 6'4", 212...And leads the league in free throw attempts...Despite not being a 3pt threat...That mean that he get the rock, you know he likely not gonna shoot the 3, and he still knockin' down 65%..?
You said it, that's some scary shit...
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AYHJA
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OK, let me just touch up on this....
As I said, w/a 3 point shot, D Wade goes to the top of this list...Bron and Melo are somewhere Belo, I'd take either or at this point...But I still stand by my original statement, Carmello has the smoother game...D Wade is the beast of the click, and I called it...
w00t!
As I said, w/a 3 point shot, D Wade goes to the top of this list...Bron and Melo are somewhere Belo, I'd take either or at this point...But I still stand by my original statement, Carmello has the smoother game...D Wade is the beast of the click, and I called it...
w00t!
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