Free Will vs. Determinism v. 2.0

[Fapper]

Sorry for the silly arm analogy i just wanted to add my traditional dose of sarcasm, for shure i understood free will is not about "i wanna fly" and grow up wings.
I just wanted to point out that "free will" is not to be blame for the lack of success in any matter, frequently we call it determinism when something doesnt go right according to our beliefs or spectations.

(just wanted to correct my previous post)

[raum]

"If we prove ourselves serving in small ways for the right reasons,
we MIGHT be chosen to serve in big ways for other things.

That's one interpretation..."

2 things:

1) So we must use our free will to achieve a state of existence where we sacrifice our will?

more like If we discover and refine our will, it will be found to be in congruence with the ineffable and immortal will of which our finite wills are but emanations of.

2) I read this and think of a somewhat helpless El, hoping that certain individuals are able to invoke him...Supwiddat?

no, the whole idea is when your will is properly aligned, and refined, it is synonymous with the will of El, which is called G-d. This makes you like a muscle in the dominant hand. If you are right-handed - you use your right hand for almost everything without even thinking, right? if you had to fight, or to farm, or to work or play, your left hand would prolly be your secondary choices. in this way, when you desire something your right hand senses it, invokes *you* and becomes your agent to accomplish your task, with the left hand as his assistant as needed.

There is a core component of El in each human that they can connect to. When you access it, you invoke El, and suddenly all of reality becomes a communication to you and at times in this state, some things you might have thought not possible occur.

Nice.

i'd be lying if i said that anology was mine. It has existed as a basic teaching since at least 1200. but it is nice and still effective with some modernization.

"For the record I do believe in self-determined existence, but not necessarily preordained birth."

How exactly do these not mutually entail each other?

Start that topic and we can discuss in more detail. It would a digression from this topic, and i find when we digress from a topic too much in VU, it tends to kill the thread.



"This is what I feel is your fundamental error, your belief in a 'good or bad' only depends on your point of view...We have discussed this before, what you consider bad, someone else considers good...We see this all the time in our culture, various social dynamics, practices, and so forth...I got ass whippings, you may have gotten Time-Outs...Good or bad..? How about a point of view..? A POV, I might add, that needs to be shed before any of the things said here will start making since IMO..."

Well raum said if we use our will properly we can invoke El...I would say using free will properly could be considered good and not using it would be bad. (I differ in the argument b/c I say we are set to do "good" until we make the decision to rebel.[/quote]

[Aemeth]

Ok man, so it's cool so far...

Now how do we put the Grand Finale into this...? Wait, backtrack: do you believe that El has an "End Day" planned? Christ returns, all that drama...?

[raum]

Ok man, so it's cool so far...

Now how do we put the Grand Finale into this...? Wait, backtrack: do you believe that El has an "End Day" planned? Christ returns, all that drama...?

What a great meditation that was visited upon John of Patmos.
What a horrible thing to use it to exploit human behavior...

Long story short... in the cave of the Oracle of Delphi, John of Patmos subsiding on poppies had a vision. That vision was revised by two popes (Innocent IV and Maximus VI) and used to lash the masses to the yoke of superstition. sad affair, really. The worst application of VITRIOL in the history of Western Mysticism.

[Aemeth]

So is that a no? And Johnny's vision isn't the only historical mention of the end...

[raum]

It's not a no, and not a yes.

I think that words like "End Day" are too charged to be used with real clarity.

There will be an end to what we are today, but it will not be the end. And yet, what we just were has ended and we we will be is about to come to pass.

I don;t believe in the "stablity" for things to "end." Life is in constant transition.

[Aemeth]

So...the whole Triumphant End to the Earth, New Kingdom is Created, all of that end day/day of judgment stuff, is it all fake?

If so...what is the point of G-d? Does it only apply to trivial issues and is therefore not connected to any long-term plan of El's?