Kobe Bryant & Michael Jordan

[Habib]

Hi AFers,

What are your thoughts on Kobe's eventual legacy in basketball? Will he be the greatest of all time? If not, then what does he need to do to claim this accolade?

To me, Kobe is more athletic and more competitive than Michael Jordan was. The only thing I doubted was Kobe's leadership, but his performance en route to the Lakers' latest championship has kind of proved this.

I look forward to your opinions.

PS: I wasn't actually born or I was a still too young a kid to have watched any games of MJ on TV and actually understand it. The fact that I said Kobe Bryant is more competitive than MJ was solely based on YouTube videos that I have been watching. I would like adults who were fortunate to watch games of MJ in the '90s weigh in more on the competitive aspect.

[erokero85]

I'd have to say Jordan was by far the more competitive of the two. He more than anyone I can remember in any team sport refused to allow his team to lose regardless of how important the game was. The guy even refuses to lose to his kids. I understand not losing, but he used to smoke his kid 11-0 in one-on-one games where most dads would at least let the kid get a few cheep points.

As far as who I would chose as #1, it's hard to say.

Jordan dominated a the NBA for a good 10 (87-88 to 97-98) year stretch. If not for his first "retirement" I believe he and the Bulls would have won 8 titles in a row and most likely one more MVP award. Plus his competition imo was much tougher with more future HOF-ers in their prime to deal with. That's not to say Kobe has been playing chumps, just not quite the caliber Jordan did. Jordan also has 6 League, and 6 Finals MVP to Kobe's 1 apiece. I hardly see Kobe running off 5 more of each. But if any guy in the NBA could, it would be Kobe or LeBron.

My biggest nod to Jordan would be that he was the undisputed leader of every Bulls team he was on. While those teams had very good talent, Jordan always had the target on his back. Kobe had Shaq at the beginning of his career, and rightfully so he was the #2 to Shaq. Jordan's Bulls and the Kobe-Shaq Lakers were very similar, but Kobe was Pippen to Shaq's Jordan. In these last two Lakers teams, Kobe was undoubtedly the man, and dragged those knuckleheads Gasol and Odom across the finish line to a championship. This 4th ring I would rate equally w/ any of Jordan's, but it's still 6-1 Jordan.

It could be just me being bias toward Jordan, but hey, it's my choice no?

[Habib]

Thank you for sharing your thought erokero85.

I see what you mean by Jordan being the undisputed leader of every Bulls team he was on and this is the first ring Kobe Bryant has gotten where he was the "leader" of the team. But, during the Kobe & Shaq dynasty from 2000 - 2002, don't you feel that Shaq needed Kobe just as much as Kobe needed Shaq? I mean, with Kobe and Shaq, to me, it wasn't as clear cut as it was with Jordan and Pippen, where in the latter, Pippen was rightfully a wing man. Some nights Shaq wouldn't get it going, Kobe took over games. Some nights, Kobe wouldn't get it going, and Shaq took over games.
Plus, it was Kobe Bryant that was usually the closer of games, as Shaq was not fit and in shape enough to play 48 minutes -- that was when Kobe Bryant established his reputation as being a clutch player.

I guess Shaq was in his prime then so he won those 3 Finals MVP, I thought they should have given Kobe Bryant one of them though -- they worked at an equal level compared to Pippen and Jordan where Jordan did a whole lot more.

Oh well. What if Kobe Bryant wins 6 championship rings though?

[AYHJA]

There is one thing that I must mention every time this argument comes up...

The Zone...

Zone defense was not legal in Jordan's day...They changed the rule in 2001(?) or something like that...That's a big deal...Jordan was a superior athlete to most, if not all of the guards in his day...He was by far the most explosive player I've ever seen...He wasn't a great dribbler, but he was crafty...He has huge hands, and palmed the ball like crazy...1 on 1, Mike was going to kill you...Period...

When the game started to change, in what I like to call the emergence of the 'And 1' era, they changed the rules...If Kobe could palm the ball and play one on one, who could stop him..? Kobe studied Mike like a book...He was fortunate to play games against him...He learned from him...He is a better ball handler, better shooter...Probably physically stronger than Mike was at his age...I agree with Ero, Mike was/is more competitive...But Kobe is a more complete player...Dude scored 81 points in a game and make it look easy...Fuck what anyone else has to say, if you watched that game you would have to admit he's on another level from anyone else...He made that shit look easy...

I you put Kobe Bryant in a league with no Zone...And the refs aren't calling palming...There is not a logical reason to think he couldn't average 45 points a game...

The only question I have would be defense...More specifically blocks...Kobe hasn't had his 100 block season yet...When he has his 'God' season, like Mike did in '88 and DWade did this year, his place in the basketball pantheon will be solid...And truth be told, the only reason its not now is his nasty off the court stuff...

[Habib]

Thanks for the feedback Ayhja.

...He has huge hands, and palmed the ball like crazy...1 on 1, Mike was going to kill you...Period...

That is a very valid point that you raised there -- MJ did indeed have huge hands, and therefore was able to do way more with the ball.

Kobe Bryant is a better 3-point shooter than MJ though. Furthermore, I believe that MJ understood how to be a leader and use it to win championships much earlier in his basketball career than Kobe Bryant did -- that is something that Kobe has only recently learned how to do.

But as you said, the comparison between the two will come down to defense. Both are extraordinary defenders, but who was better?

[AYHJA]

We may never know the answer to that...Kobe is regarded as a great individual defender, but he plays a lot of rover these days in the zone d they run...

[erokero85]

Honestly, I'd put defense at pretty much a push. While Jordan's stats and honors are slightly better (9 1st team, to 7 1st & 2 2nd), he got tons of help from Pippen who was every bit the defender Jordan was, if not better. Most times Pippen guarded the best perimeter (1-3) player freeing up Jordan to save energy to score. But again Kobe has improved greatly over the years, but it helped by the aforementioned "zone" defense.

Another thing to remember about the 80's and 90's, while there was no "zone" defense, and that surely did help MJ, defenses were also allowed much more contact. Teams were allowed to be much more physical on defense which helped teams such as Detroit's "Bad Boys", and Pat Riley's Knicks thrive on punishing defense. Heck the biggest of Chuck Daley's "Jordan Rules" was "he goes to the basket, he goes to the floor". That kind of pounding would take it's toll on anyone. Most of today's rules are to help offensive players drive the ball and create space.

IMO, leadership is what separates the two. Jordan made everyone of his teammates better. He had an almost pointguard like feel for games and teammates. He instilled faith and trust in every guy on his team that if they did their part, the team would win. Guys like John Paxton, Craig Tucker, and Steve Kerr, knew Jordan would pass if they were open and that he trusted them to make the shot. Kobe is getting there, but too often he still seems to treat his teammates like they are in his way. That's the games where everyone just stands around watching Kobe. Plus he still has those bizarre games where Kobe gets stubborn and does strange things just to prove a point. Like where he'll take 2 shots in a quarter and forces passes to teammates when guys say he shoots too much.

Either way, on a court, both are bad bad men on a level few have ever reached. Maybe just them two. But I still have MJ slightly ahead of Kobe, but Kobe still has a few more years to change that.

[AYHJA]

Yeah, see...I don't quite see that...The part about Mike doing so much more to make his teammates better...A lot of people say it, so it must be true to some level, but statistically, MJ's and Kobe's numbers are similar as far as assists and things like that go...I grew up in Chicago, watching Bulls games was a way of life...Mike was individually awesome early in his career...The Bulls did not even have a winning season until Mike's 4th or 5th year...

You don't average 5, 6 assists a year consistently as Kobe has done without passing the ball...As far as making them better, when you're young, you don't know shit...All you have is talent...Just like MJ...I'm not sure why Kobe is knocked for this and MJ is not...Now that Kobe knows the game, knows the system, he's a leader...The circle is complete...Just like it happened for MJ...

You don't become the most dominant player in the game by being a nice guy...Nobody talked more trash than Mike...Nobody tried to fight Mike...Nobody got in Mike's face...Man, Mike was a fucking beast...Unless teammates wanted to find another team to play for or get an ass whipping in practice, they played well...Said of Jordan in the Book, ''The Jordan Rules" :

• .....Jordan punches a teammate in practice and refuses to pass the ball in the crucial minutes of big games...
• Jordan's power struggles with management, from verbal attacks on the general manager to tantrums against his coach...

Sound familiar..? His airness had an 'air' about him...You didn't talk about the nasty side of MJ...All the chicks he was banging, all the behind the scenes feuding...If Kobe suggested that he should be a part team owner because the Lakers can't pay him what he's worth, he would be slayed in the media like no other...Isn't that really why MJ left the Bulls..? Especially the second time...

Kobe still has a few more years to change that

Man, I just realized, Kobe is only 30 years old...MJ played until he was 39, albeit he did take a few years off here and there...It's certainly intriguing...

[erokero85]

Believe me, I've heard all the other stuff Jordan did. He was an A-hole in many ways, but he got to such legendary Brett Farve status (or is Farve at MJ status?) where everyone just brushed that stuff under the rug. It's the whole "winners make the rules" and whatnot. But for the most part, I tend to judge them by actions on the court only.

Yes Jordan was every bit the ball hog when he was younger, I'm not knocking Kobe for his younger days. It's the fact that while far less this past year, it still happens. Even then, it's not really a knock on Kobe, I'd equally blame his teammates for standing around and expecting Kobe to win the game for them.

And stats are tricky. Who's the best here?

a) 14.4 ppg, 0.8 stl pg, 8.0 ast pg, 3.0 reb pg
b) 19.3 ppg. 1.2 stl pg, 7.6 ast pg, 3.0 reb pg
c) 25.1 ppg, 1.5 stl pg, 4.6 ast pg, 5.3 reb pg

All pretty solid career numbers, and hard pressed to say who is by far the best/worst. Just sayin'.

[Habib]

You don't become the most dominant player in the game by being a nice guy...

A very important point that you have raised there, Ayhja. Although this is out of topic, that is part of the reason I think that the Cavs didn't go as far as they were predicted to go this year. LeBron acts too much of a nice guy, and his team mates don't have some sort of "fear" in him. Guys like Kobe, KG, they are so maniac like in character, that it made their team mates give a 100%.

Most players that have won championships, weren't "nice" guys. MJ, Kobe, KG, etc. Magic Johnson was a nice guy and always smiled at his team mates, but then he had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy, so he did not need to be aggressive toward them.

I believe though that if Kobe Bryant can win 2 more championships, he and MJ can be considered equal.

erokero85, you have 3 stats there. Who is the 3rd one for?