ADN

ZING!

But if the clone is alive, breathing, walking, talking...Does it not have a soul, albeit an artificial one..?

No, because a soul isn't something you can create. So yes, the clone may be alive and breathing, but I would actually doubt whether it would have a conscious. It would seem to be more animalistic in that it'll learn through trial and error and (natural) programming, but it's not going to have a consciousness within

You would also have to consider all the scars, marks, bumps, etc that one accumulates over the passage of time. A clone would not have experience those events that left those marks, therefore would not be identical.

The experiences of a lifetime shape and form us, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. There is NO way a clone taken from me at this point in my life could have those same experiences and thus be the same as me. Too, a clone formed from this 52 year old genetic material would be 52 years younger than I am at present. I know of no technology that can advance the growth of a cloned infant 52 years in a short time period. That clone would have to travel those 52 years to get to where I am now, experiencing an entirely different set of events than I have. I'd be 6 feet under (or rather 100 feet under) by the time my clone reached the point in its life that I'm at now.

The only time you could possibly have clones be close to identical would be to clone the embryo in vitro so there would only be a few months difference in ages. Still, as they go through their lives, they will become increasingly individualized as they experience different things apart from the other. One might fall down some steps and scar a knee while the other might cut himself badly with a knife.

Wouldn't/ couldn't be the same as the movie... but then, isn't that why we go to the movies?

no, no, nono, no!

Cloning does not provide "replicas" at all. That would require a far greater process, of constant domination of cellular growth. This would be painful beyond belief, and would require constant maintenance. Clones will not and should not be expected to demonstrate the same dominant traits as the host cells, even if they have a common genetic origin.

Identical twins are not the reasonable expectation for cloning, despite Hollywood's fertile imagination. Identical twins are formed of one sperm fertilizing one egg. For *some mysterious reason*, it splits into two embryos. So, by the reasoning involved - a pair of twins would only have one soul, or one would lack a soul. Is a soul divisible, or can it co-habitate two bodies? Other twins are dual fertilized; two eggs fertilized into a pair of embryoii.

Clones on the other hand, are created with the nucleus of one egg cell is replaced with the nucleus of another egg cell, and the egg is then fertilized. Cloning would produce the same kind of "soul" as a child born of many other artificial birthing methods. The "ideal goal" of cloning is a nucleus of an infertile egg cell could be implanted into a fertile egg. We have no ability to "clone" from any tissue other than fertile eggs, so far. Furthermore, there is no reason to think such any other "cloning" could occur. Even if we were to produce an organism from the deep cell tissue of any other being, even a human - it would not grow into a human, a replica of a human, or even a vertabrate. It would be for all practical purposes a bio-machine - much like a bacteria colony. Also, with no internal endocrine system, or lymphatic system - it would fall ill to disease and die quickly - even if you could nourish it.

Either way, it stands to reason that the same *fuzzy spirit math* could be the reason a cloned egg cell could grow into a human who has a "soul", even more then identical twins who are by that same "fuzzy math" are also less than human; cause only one soul comes out the penis and splits into two. [ZING!]

I thought of the perfect anology.

if you copy a zip file - that contains an executable program file, and you put it in another zip file... unless files have the same name properties (genetic traits), and as long as they don't exceed the total file size allowed (biological composition) - you should be fine.

But if you just copy the instance folder from a friend's c drive, doesn't mean you can install and use the program. Cause you don't have the executeable (egg cell). So you can't just use an ear to grow a person.

Yeah, I wasn't really sold on the idea that a clone wouldn't have a soul...To me, a soul is a life force...I'm pretty sure that even if artificial, the way to get souls from the gulf involves any process that can replicate birth to a reasonable degree...In other words, we don't need clouds and static to make lightning in a lab...

But why would it not be possible for a clone to have your memories, scars, etc..? If it is a replica, then using raum's example about the zip file, you can make a copy of any file and it be nearly identical, save for the point where it was created...And actually, in that regard, no two files are ever going to be alike...But if your brain is your hard drive...And your DNA your file system, why would that not be able to be copied..?

Obviously, the technology for this does not exist, and likely never will...But theoretically speaking, lets say we're mad scientists...We have found a way to suspend x3n so that he is in a near death state...There is no brain activity, other than that which innately controls your body...Using patented AYHJA technology, we have a machine than can create complete DNA and tissue maps and replicate any cell, simple or complex...And using the the modern day tool of Hiram, we about to make us a clone...

Given that we'll have to fill in gaps to provide reasons why this will or will not work, why wouldn't clone x3n wake up from a suspended state alongside host x3n with the same memories, feelings, emotions, reactions, etc..? Why wouldn't they be mirror options..? Would they wake up and say the same things..? Make the same looks..? Or would clone x3n become his own person..?

your "clone" would die, fast and dirty; if left to his own devices.

He would break his leg the first time he tried to walk, for he has no body memory of how to moderate the force of his steps. Around puberty, the body's ability to generate enough force to break its own bones occurs.

He would not have proper developed vocal cords, no stretch ever so they like every other tendon in his body would atrophy quickly, and prolly never be able to speak. He would have no learned understanding of non-vocal communication, no sense of irony or elaboration.

None of these cells would be aged properly, so immunities would be very low, and bone marrow transplants would be required often. His body would not have proper use of the mouth for eating, and would likely macerate the inside of his mouth if he tried to eat, if he did not bite his tongue completely off. He would have irritated eyes, and likely need cornea replacements, or low light conditions, and he would have severe allergies to most natural expellents, especially pollen. He would experience extreme headaches, and he would be extremely susceptible to carcinogens.

Even taking two instances of the exact same EVERYTHING - one has never learned to function, and you can not impart involuntary actions. The only chance a "clone" - fuck it - call it a "lab grown doppleganger" before you confuse what a clone is with this replicant idea.... I am calling our host specimen "xen prime" and our lab grown doppleganger "xen beta."

The only chance xen beta has at life is a chance to let his body learn how to function. and you can feed it "data" and "memories" - but it is in a receptive state. The minute it is free of a entirely receptive state (even if its body were somehow suitable for mobility and free deliberate action), "xen beta" will begin to experience a different life than "xen prime"; because "xen prime" has lived a life of result from the conclusions he expected.

How many of us get what we expect all the time? The minute "xen beta" expects something, and it does not occur - he is in the drink... not sure what is going to occur, even in consideration of his "previous experience." Shortly after that, he will experience a paradox, and *poof* now he has an ego. We know these cognitive developments are involuntary, but they are NOT uncalculated by the pituitary ganglion. We just don't know the exact *how*, but they are as regulated as our activity cycle, huger cycle, and sex drives.

Now see, this is where I'm not getting it...And using you ZIP file example, I'm really not getting it...Or well, not really getting what you're saying...

raum wrote:He would break his leg the first time he tried to walk, for he has no body memory of how to moderate the force of his steps. Around puberty, the body's ability to generate enough force to break its own bones occurs.

Since we have x3n prime, why wouldn't x3n beta have his memory..? IE, I have a ZIP file on my harddisk...I copy it to a thumbdrive...And then copy that ZIP file from the thumbdrive to another computer...According to your logic (if I'm following it correctly) the ZIP file would not function because the CPU in the second computer would not have a direct recollection of creating the ZIP..? Or, maybe its not the same type of CPU, software, harddisk, etc..?

Our modern Hiram tool has created x3n prime cell for cell in our Bacta tank...Lets say that the brain stores memories like a computer does...If x3n prime has "00101101001000001000111000100011" in a particular quadrant of the brain that has that type of information stored, then x3n beta has that same binary in the same place...Why wouldn't x3n beta have learned what x3n prime did..?

In one instance, I see what you're saying...You and I can talk and train and prepare for a boxing match all we want...But until you get in the ring and someone taps that chin, that learning is not applied...Unless we're suggesting our clone would wake up and have one huge ass trip of Deja Vu when he first wakes up, he will know what 'steps' are even if he has never taken one...He will know how to sit up, look around, and process information, right, or no..?

xen beta would have cognitive expectation based on his implanted memory; but he would lack muscle memory. Those kinds of things are not "stored" in the brain but in other parts of the nervous system - longterm. They are muscle memory, reflex, and stimulated short term memory.

no data in the world will do you any good unless you can compile it into a system than can handle the workload.

When all is said and done, you would prolly be able to make a xen beta who could remember xen prime's life, access a memory bank of his recorded memories and knowledge, convince him xen prime's opinions were his own... but he would not be able to de facto APPLY that knowledge the same way. Cognition doesn't work like that.