ADN

But what would the rope be tied to? The Cross was pretty high and there wasn't anything higher was there?

the rope would be tied in a loop around his neck and the top arm of the cross, when he dropped down, the rope would tighten around his neck... when he strained to raise himself, his wounds would be aggravated and the pain would be excrutiating...

vertical,
raum

Oh ok...that makes sense. Thanks Raum

If jesus died for our sins why couldn't he just commit sucide. I know sucide is a sin but the son of god could bend the rules alittle.java script:emoticon('O:)')
Angel

Although wordy unlike I would have, that's a pretty valid question I think...

What is the supposed message sent by JC, was it to fulfill the prophecy..? Is the suffering for our benefit alone..?

I don't suppose it would have been as engrained in our minds had he come here, worked a few miracles and said, I'm The Son of Jehovah, and the living God, and I'm here to die for your sins...

I don't think that something we've talked about before, is it..?

Three not-so-common views.

Lucifierean. Origin - Greek Gnostic ideas of the Demiurge. Jeshua was the redeemed El Ha-Shaitan El (God that is not God) who brought down the fire of the Gods (The Thunderbolt of the Gnosis) to mankind. He had to die in subjugation to man for his crimes against God regarding man. Sometimes, it is also positied that Jeshua was Lucifer bowing down to man's authority, as he had originally refused to do. The original Greek term Phos (Light) Phoros (Bearer). This is where our name for the Element "Phosphorous" comes from. The term in the Roman tongue was Luce (of the Light) Ferro (Bearer) "Bearer of the Light" was adopted from the believers of this view, heavily inspired by the stories of Prometheus.

The idea is that Jeshua is identified with the Martyr Archetype.

Every culture has at least one. Many older than Jeshua's story, and certainly influencing the account of his life.

Prometheus martyred daily with the rising of the sun (Greek)
Tiki-Maui martyred on the shores of Oahu (Hawaiian)
Cu Cuhulain martyred on the moors of Scotland (Celtic)
Baldur martyred to begin the Ragnorak (Nordic)
Quetzacoatl martyred by his brother Texcatlpoctli (Aztec)
Galeleio martyred for the idea of a heliocentric star system.
Pythagoras martyred for the measurements of a right triangle.
Giordano Bruno martyred for his wit at codes and cyphers.

just to name a few...

This all reflects a particular stage of humanity. and not the final one...

vertical,
raum

First of all, I don't believe that Jesus could have committed suicide because the sacrifice that God required had to be perfect. Without blemishes. If he would have sinned then he wouldn't be perfect and not a presentable sacrifice. He also had to fulfill the prophecy. That was that he was going to be handed over and murdered. (of course that is a paraphrase)

Where does it say in the bible again that Suicide is a sin..?

We need some scriptures in this thread, to get some info into the clear...So much of what we pass off as truth isn't even in the bible...Anywhere..And what is there, is always the possibility that there are mistranslations and what not...

DISCLAIMER-

I do not advocate killing oneself. not for any reason.

This is not the same as being willing to die for your life!

The bible doesn't say you can not kill yourself. it never says you go to hell if you do. It never says any of that church nonsense. I do not believe that is so. I believe, instead, that the sacrifice of one's life is the highest achievement a person can attain.

I know more about this that prolly most of the people here. not because i was a troubled teenager or some shit. To get in the duty I had, I signed a paper saying I would be willing to take a life, including my own if so ordered, for God, Country and Creed. Who else has done this?

For me, suicide is not a given option to deal with my problems. It was just in the job description. For example, if my ship was taken over by hostiles, I lock the armory and blow it up, sending charges through the ship, and sink the whole damn thing. To give you an idea. I had no place on a life raft in the event of "Abandon ship".

The radiomen on board had guns for the specific purpose of blowing up the radio and the brains that held the information on how to work it. I had to do equip checks on them, and would laugh with my friend Cliff, who might have to put that gun to use, if he was on duty at the time.

There were friends of mine that, if we got boarded and taken over, would have to report to the armory with me before I blew it up... We had a bottle of Johnny Walker Black for the occasion, and that was what we called it when we had to practice it. "Walking Black drills."

They always ended at the bar.

I don't think this was suicide... it was duty. I was simply willing to accept myself as a casualty of military orders. Didn't want to die. Takes a certain kind of person.

There are by the way, only 7 self-inflicted deaths explicitly stated in the bible. Two are aguably not suicide.

Abimelech - he tried to become king of israel after killing his 70 brothers. A woman saw him, and dropped a huge stone on his head. he would not survive, and commanded his armbearer to slay him with the sword. PUNK'D! but not a suicide, really. The sword was not in his hand. this was a duty.

Samson - Got seduced stripped of his power-hair by Delilah, and imprisoned by the Philistines. He was blinded and chained between the two pillars in the building of their meeting on the invasion of Israel, and HE BROUGHT THE WHOLE PLACE DOWN, KILLING MOST OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE PHILISTINES. He wasn't trying to kill himself. He was trying to give glory to God, kill the Philistine bosses, and lost his life in the process. He was blinded, he couldn't see his circumstances, but he didn't care. He wanted to break his bonds to show the philistines the power of his God. Being that God granted him the strength to do this, he is one of the few cases of a person redeemed by their own faith and devotion, and his end caused by his own works is just for his crime. I rule not a suicide, a soldier's glory to fall taking his enemy down. See Hebrews 11:32.

Saul, First king of Israel. he falls on his own sword in battle, because he had been shot with an arrow and feared slow and painful death at the hands of the Philistines. He begs his armbearer to kill him, and the man refuses to do so. He argues "you say kill, God says don't kill. I will obey God." He had already been "rejected" by god at that time, for his acceptance of the Amalekite's religion and culture. This was duty, but with cowardice. I'd taken the armbearer with me, personally, for disobedience in war.

The armbearer who died with Saul. He ended up killing his own self, falling on his own sword, prolly cause he was a wimp, arguing about the morality of killing in the middle of a battle ground he willingly entered... this was a wimpy death of cowardice.

Ahitophel, Advisor to King David. He was Bathsheba's Grandfather, and was upset of the treachery of Uriah, whom he loved as a son. When Absolom conspired to take David's Kingdom, Ahithophel helped him, and became a advisor to Absolom. He came up with the master plan to defeat David once and for all. Absolom refused the plan, for his pride, and David was victorious. So, Ahithophel killed himself, knowing what fate awaited him. I believe he poisoned himself, but it is not really a big deal. this was cowardice and maybe a bit of guilt for betraying the king that loved him for the king that belittled him..

Zimri - commander of the guard. King for seven days. Candidate for The dumbest ass in the Good Book. Elah was King of Israel at the time, and his sons were all coming into town. They got drunk on wine women and all the good stuff fathers and sons should share. So, Zimri, KILLS THEM ALL AND PRONOUCES HIMSELF KING. Of course that flies, right? Instead the army turns on him, while they assemble to his army, and he torches the place and locks himself inside. This is how the Palace of Israel is destroyed. Zimri = asshat. this was sheer stupidity.

finally,

Judas Iscariot - one of the most controversial people in the Bible. At times a common thief, at times a noble friend and the most faithful of disciples... always ends up with a rope burn aound his neck by his own hand. this was surely escape from guilt, or the idea exists that he did not hang himself. some of these are interesting.

One of the most disturbing and thus not very popular is that Judas was beset upon by all the unclean spirits he had cast out of others in the name of Jesus (cause all the disciples had been doing this for years). After he betrayed Jesus to the romans, his power as an Apostle over the unclean spirits was corrupted, and they sought him for revenge. It was these demons that are still on earth, and not confined (as yet) by the power of God through Jesus.

The story of Legion bears witness to the fact that not even Jesus can have power over unclean spirits (like "Legion") when he casts them out, but has to put them in the swine that go over the side of the cliff.

not a comfortable thought, eh?

anyways, ADN soldiers...

If ya gotta take yourself out, be Samson not Judas, and surely not ZIMRI.

and stay away from that Heaven's gate shite!

vertical,
raum

RAUM = Better than scripture...