Growing up, I was under the distinct idea that Jesus was the Son of God, having existed in heaven prior to his coming to earth and dying for our sins...Fair enough...
But then, as I got older, I slowly adopted the idea that Jesus was in fact God in the flesh, that the form he took was so very much not as his normal self, but a form able to be seen and interpreted by us here on earth, that it could in fact be said they were seprate beings, but one in the same...
I'm sure there are mounds of scriptures as well as other sources that could point in either direction...Perhaps our resident mystic and reader of Hebrew could point out some of the translations for us, and argue what in fact is printed to what they actually mean...
As far as I know, there is no mention of God creating any other beings in the old testament aside from Adam and Eve, the things here on earth, etc...But angels come into the picture very soon, so we are lead to believe that they were either created or existed in the same matter is which God did...Which consequently follows along my belief that like essences that came from 0...
What do you subscribe to..?
Is Jesus God, or a completely seperate entity..?
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AYHJA
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highlife
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Well im gonna add to your list.Christians believe god exists in 3 forms.The father..the son (jesus) and the holy ghost( gods guiding spiret that lives inside you).There all the same thing.Now im gonna say what others have said....Me sits back and waits for the flaming to begin.
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DaddyJ
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Correct they are one and the same, also referred to as the Trinity.
This came to mind... I Am Alpha and Omega
Here is the scripture,
John 1:1-14 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This came to mind... I Am Alpha and Omega
Here is the scripture,
John 1:1-14 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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highlife
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bd55
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Actually I remember my mother telling me a story about that when I was a kid. I believe it came from a gospel, but I do not remember whose.
The story goes about this saint who was trying to understand how God could be the three entities and one at the same time. He was thus walking on a beach pondering on that when he saw a kid. The kid had made a hole in the sand and he was bringing water in a shell from the sea and pouring into the hole.
So the saint asked him what he was doing. The kid said that he wanted to get all the water from the ocean into that hole using his shell. The saint then told him that such thing was impossible. And the kid told him that it was easier for him to do that than for the saint to understand the Holy Trinity.
The story goes about this saint who was trying to understand how God could be the three entities and one at the same time. He was thus walking on a beach pondering on that when he saw a kid. The kid had made a hole in the sand and he was bringing water in a shell from the sea and pouring into the hole.
So the saint asked him what he was doing. The kid said that he wanted to get all the water from the ocean into that hole using his shell. The saint then told him that such thing was impossible. And the kid told him that it was easier for him to do that than for the saint to understand the Holy Trinity.
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Skinny Bastard
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QUOTE(DaddyJ)....In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....but what if....
The Word = Jesus (the Son)
God = God The Father
The Word was God = Pre-birth Jesus as the God of the Old Testament acting under the direction of God the Father.
I could use the same scripture to argue that they are distinct beings (the word was WITH God) but one in purpose.
My own belief in Christ is that he not only saved us, but also created us (under the direction of the Father).
It is interesting to note that the New Testament does not use the word "Τριάς" (Trinity). It does speak of God the Father and of his only begotten son in the flesh, Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The word and/or concept of Trinity was applied to them later as a result of theological discussion and reconciliation. Remember, the Romans had a Pantheon of Gods and early Christians felt a need to distinguish themselves as Unitarians (believing in only one God). This was difficult to reconcile with scriptures that referred to God the Father as being unique from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So they forced them into a concept of one and applied the word Trinity to refer to this "3 aspects of a single God" notion.
The earliest Christians were, in fact, noted for their insistence on the existence of only one true God, in contrast to the polytheism of the prevailing culture. They believed Jesus Christ to be something more than a man (see the opening verses of the Letter to the Hebrews which describe him as the reflection of God's glory or even the verses quoted above from John). I inherited many things from my parents...would it be a stretch to believe that Christ, as the son of God, would have inherited God's powers ("in [Jesus] lives all the fullness of Deity bodily" - Colossians 2:9) and therefore also be a God? And if they acted with the same purpose (the creation and salvation of man) would you not also refer to them as being one? Unified through a single sense of purpose? Add in the Holy Spirit (who clearly also exhibits God like powers) and you've got yourself a Pantheon... oops, I mean TRINITY (because we can't be like the Romans)!
The importance for the first Christians of their faith in God, whom they called Father, in Jesus Christ, whom they saw as Son of God, and in the Holy Spirit is expressed in formulas that link all three together, such as those in the Gospel according to Matthew, the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19); and in the Second Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Corinthians 13:14).
Strategies about how best to explain the association of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit with the one God developed gradually and not without controversy. Christians had to reconcile their belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ with their belief in the one-ness of God. In doing so, some stressed the one-ness to the point of considering Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit as merely three modes or roles in which God shows himself to mankind; others stressed the three-ness to the point of positing three divine beings, with only one of them supreme and God in the full sense. Only in the fourth century were the distinctness of the three and their unity brought together and expressed in mainline Christianity in a single doctrine of one essence and three persons. Some Christians still debate the differences found in the New Testament, where Christ declared "I and my Father are one," but also prayed on the cross, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?).
In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted a term for the relationship between the Son and the Father that from then on was seen as the hallmark of orthodoxy; it declared that the Son is "of the same substance" as the Father. This was further developed into the formula "three persons, one substance".
The lack of a clear scriptural basis for the Trinity was a disquieting problem for the Church. One mediaeval forger added a passage now known as the Comma Johanneum into the First Epistle of John explicitly referencing the trinity. The forgery found its way into several later copies, and eventually into the Textus Receptus which formed the basis of the King James Version. Erasmus, the compiler of the Textus Receptus, noticed that the passage was not found in any of the ancient manuscripts, but was forced by the religious authorities to continue to include it. Interestingly enough, Isaac Newton, (yes, I said Isaac Newton.... known mostly for his Scientific discoveries), rediscovered the forgery. As a result, many modern translations now either omit the passage or make it clear that it is not found in the early manuscripts.
I guess the question is†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬…¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¦ why must there be only one? This isn†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢t Highlander, after all†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬…¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¦ /:D" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt=":D" />
What is wrong with a belief in multiple, but unified Gods?
Just my 2 cents (or should I make that 3 cents that are one in purpose... /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> )
-Mr. SM-
The Word = Jesus (the Son)
God = God The Father
The Word was God = Pre-birth Jesus as the God of the Old Testament acting under the direction of God the Father.
I could use the same scripture to argue that they are distinct beings (the word was WITH God) but one in purpose.
My own belief in Christ is that he not only saved us, but also created us (under the direction of the Father).
It is interesting to note that the New Testament does not use the word "Τριάς" (Trinity). It does speak of God the Father and of his only begotten son in the flesh, Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The word and/or concept of Trinity was applied to them later as a result of theological discussion and reconciliation. Remember, the Romans had a Pantheon of Gods and early Christians felt a need to distinguish themselves as Unitarians (believing in only one God). This was difficult to reconcile with scriptures that referred to God the Father as being unique from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So they forced them into a concept of one and applied the word Trinity to refer to this "3 aspects of a single God" notion.
The earliest Christians were, in fact, noted for their insistence on the existence of only one true God, in contrast to the polytheism of the prevailing culture. They believed Jesus Christ to be something more than a man (see the opening verses of the Letter to the Hebrews which describe him as the reflection of God's glory or even the verses quoted above from John). I inherited many things from my parents...would it be a stretch to believe that Christ, as the son of God, would have inherited God's powers ("in [Jesus] lives all the fullness of Deity bodily" - Colossians 2:9) and therefore also be a God? And if they acted with the same purpose (the creation and salvation of man) would you not also refer to them as being one? Unified through a single sense of purpose? Add in the Holy Spirit (who clearly also exhibits God like powers) and you've got yourself a Pantheon... oops, I mean TRINITY (because we can't be like the Romans)!
The importance for the first Christians of their faith in God, whom they called Father, in Jesus Christ, whom they saw as Son of God, and in the Holy Spirit is expressed in formulas that link all three together, such as those in the Gospel according to Matthew, the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19); and in the Second Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Corinthians 13:14).
Strategies about how best to explain the association of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit with the one God developed gradually and not without controversy. Christians had to reconcile their belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ with their belief in the one-ness of God. In doing so, some stressed the one-ness to the point of considering Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit as merely three modes or roles in which God shows himself to mankind; others stressed the three-ness to the point of positing three divine beings, with only one of them supreme and God in the full sense. Only in the fourth century were the distinctness of the three and their unity brought together and expressed in mainline Christianity in a single doctrine of one essence and three persons. Some Christians still debate the differences found in the New Testament, where Christ declared "I and my Father are one," but also prayed on the cross, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?).
In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted a term for the relationship between the Son and the Father that from then on was seen as the hallmark of orthodoxy; it declared that the Son is "of the same substance" as the Father. This was further developed into the formula "three persons, one substance".
The lack of a clear scriptural basis for the Trinity was a disquieting problem for the Church. One mediaeval forger added a passage now known as the Comma Johanneum into the First Epistle of John explicitly referencing the trinity. The forgery found its way into several later copies, and eventually into the Textus Receptus which formed the basis of the King James Version. Erasmus, the compiler of the Textus Receptus, noticed that the passage was not found in any of the ancient manuscripts, but was forced by the religious authorities to continue to include it. Interestingly enough, Isaac Newton, (yes, I said Isaac Newton.... known mostly for his Scientific discoveries), rediscovered the forgery. As a result, many modern translations now either omit the passage or make it clear that it is not found in the early manuscripts.
I guess the question is†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬…¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¦ why must there be only one? This isn†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¾¢‚¬Å¡‚¢t Highlander, after all†™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™¢¢¬…¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¦ /:D" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt=":D" />
What is wrong with a belief in multiple, but unified Gods?
Just my 2 cents (or should I make that 3 cents that are one in purpose... /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> )
-Mr. SM-
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DaddyJ
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The WORD = Truth = Light = God
Jesus is the word the light and the truth.
Man saw the word the truth the light in flesh.
It's that simple but to understand you must believe.
The word doesn't leave room for a "unified" word.
The truth doesn't leave room for a "unified" truth.
The light doesn't leave room for a "unified" light.
Jesus is the word the light and the truth.
Man saw the word the truth the light in flesh.
It's that simple but to understand you must believe.
The word doesn't leave room for a "unified" word.
The truth doesn't leave room for a "unified" truth.
The light doesn't leave room for a "unified" light.
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Skinny Bastard
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I still believe them to be seperate. Even to the extant of speculating that "The Holy Spirit" could be none other than "God the Mother"....
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DaddyJ
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LOL... let me exit this thread now before he strikes thee /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
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Skinny Bastard
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So, you don't believe in God the Mother?
How sexist.... O:)
I actually have a friend who preaches the divinity of the quartenary as opposed to the trinity. He believes satan (lucifer) to be a god also (a fallen one, but a god still the same) and as critical to our progression as any other. "you must understand hot to understand cold, evil to know good, etc."
How sexist.... O:)
I actually have a friend who preaches the divinity of the quartenary as opposed to the trinity. He believes satan (lucifer) to be a god also (a fallen one, but a god still the same) and as critical to our progression as any other. "you must understand hot to understand cold, evil to know good, etc."
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