does it exist? doesn't it?
what are the arguments...
Divine and unchanging will...
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trashtalkr
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The first thing you need to believe for a Divine and unchanging will is that there is a God. So that's the first step. If you believe that, then a Divine, unchanging will follows pretty easily
"If there were no eternal consciousness in a man, if at the bottom of everything there were only a wild ferment, a power that twisting in dark passions produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything, what would life be but despair?"
Soren Kierkegaard
Soren Kierkegaard
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gmsnctry
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Huh???
I believe thier might be a God but I also beleive he doesnt have a Divine and unchanging will or plan for each and every indivual.
He may have a grand scheme but their are a miriad of ways to achieve that end (salvation)
God cares little about the affairs of men (ie wars, SIDS, collateral damage, early or young deaths, people being murdered IMHO)
I find it hard to beleive that God planned for a baby to die of SIDS, a Pro Sports team to win, the Allies to prevail in WWII, a kid to get run over by a drunkdriver, deaths by Mother nature, students being gunned down at VT- for what purpose- restock the angels/army in heaven for the final battle??)
or that he 'tests', 'tempts' us or throws challenges in our way so we can then receive blessings
No divine will - If I understand the question correctly. Life is as random as there are people on this earth. We make it not some plan from the heavens- although it can be affected, directed, influenced by others
Some have (so called god) given abilities and can chooose to ignore, enhance or create others thru education, training, and practice.
Many who dont believe in a god do great things, works, for others, etc
I believe thier might be a God but I also beleive he doesnt have a Divine and unchanging will or plan for each and every indivual.
He may have a grand scheme but their are a miriad of ways to achieve that end (salvation)
God cares little about the affairs of men (ie wars, SIDS, collateral damage, early or young deaths, people being murdered IMHO)
I find it hard to beleive that God planned for a baby to die of SIDS, a Pro Sports team to win, the Allies to prevail in WWII, a kid to get run over by a drunkdriver, deaths by Mother nature, students being gunned down at VT- for what purpose- restock the angels/army in heaven for the final battle??)
or that he 'tests', 'tempts' us or throws challenges in our way so we can then receive blessings
No divine will - If I understand the question correctly. Life is as random as there are people on this earth. We make it not some plan from the heavens- although it can be affected, directed, influenced by others
Some have (so called god) given abilities and can chooose to ignore, enhance or create others thru education, training, and practice.
Many who dont believe in a god do great things, works, for others, etc
<-------- Team DD -------->
Liberalism is not an affiliation; its a curable disease
Always do right. This will gratify many people, and astonish the rest.
~Wisdom of Shawnshuefus
---------------------- [ ∞ ] ----------------------
Liberalism is not an affiliation; its a curable disease
Always do right. This will gratify many people, and astonish the rest.
~Wisdom of Shawnshuefus
---------------------- [ ∞ ] ----------------------
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Aemeth
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Arguments for:
*God is totally sovereign/powerful, we are merely his tools to carrying out his will...If we had free will, we could surprise God, and you can't surprise a totally sovereign God. If you grant free will to humans, sovereignty is diluted.
*Scripturally, Paul writes a lot about predestination, etc., especially in Romans, implying a Calvinist God
*Prophecies about the Messiah's birth and other things that were made 1000s of years before they occured were actualized, strongly suggesting God knows and dictates the future (at least in part)
*Even the Open Theist will say "God can intervene when necessary." If that is the case, how free ARE we if we are only free when it doesn't really matter?
Arguments against:
*True love is based on choice, so in order for God to be all-loving, we must choose to accept him. An all-loving God wouldn't make robots.
*Scripturally, there are accounts of God being sad, surprised, and even regretful that he created the world (eh Genesis 6 maybe?).
*A bit arrogant, but why would God bother to create a world if he knew exactly what was going to happen to everything and everyone, EVER? What is the point?
*If predestination is true, how is it fair that God sends some people to heaven and some to hell? How is this loving?
I think I hit the main ones, but feel free to add anything I missed...
*God is totally sovereign/powerful, we are merely his tools to carrying out his will...If we had free will, we could surprise God, and you can't surprise a totally sovereign God. If you grant free will to humans, sovereignty is diluted.
*Scripturally, Paul writes a lot about predestination, etc., especially in Romans, implying a Calvinist God
*Prophecies about the Messiah's birth and other things that were made 1000s of years before they occured were actualized, strongly suggesting God knows and dictates the future (at least in part)
*Even the Open Theist will say "God can intervene when necessary." If that is the case, how free ARE we if we are only free when it doesn't really matter?
Arguments against:
*True love is based on choice, so in order for God to be all-loving, we must choose to accept him. An all-loving God wouldn't make robots.
*Scripturally, there are accounts of God being sad, surprised, and even regretful that he created the world (eh Genesis 6 maybe?).
*A bit arrogant, but why would God bother to create a world if he knew exactly what was going to happen to everything and everyone, EVER? What is the point?
*If predestination is true, how is it fair that God sends some people to heaven and some to hell? How is this loving?
I think I hit the main ones, but feel free to add anything I missed...
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Brains
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like you said in the other thread. the premise to accepting for and against is a belief in a god as it is explained to us by christian culture...
i do not believe in such a god... with which i am not implying that i do not believe in good and evil - which at this point in time better convey the original emotions labelled as god and devil by christianity imho.
i do not believe in such a god... with which i am not implying that i do not believe in good and evil - which at this point in time better convey the original emotions labelled as god and devil by christianity imho.
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trashtalkr
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It's not just about the Christian God. It would be about the basic philosophical view of the definition of God. Philosophers like Spinoza, Leibniz, Kant, and many others believed solely in a divine will of God and I know that Spinoza said that man has no free will. (I don't remember about the others). None of these guys were Christians. Spinoza was a pantheist and still held these beliefs
"If there were no eternal consciousness in a man, if at the bottom of everything there were only a wild ferment, a power that twisting in dark passions produced everything great or inconsequential; if an unfathomable insatiable emptiness lay hid beneath everything, what would life be but despair?"
Soren Kierkegaard
Soren Kierkegaard
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AYHJA
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I agree with what gms said alot...I mean, does God really care that Kobe scored 38 points Sunday..?
This whole all powerful God that has this intense focus on micromanagement is ridiculous to me...Humans are not dominoes, set up and falling to provide some big picture we can't see but we we are a part of...
I think humans are walking models of the universe...Just like every star has their own solar system, each human has their purpose and their mission independent of others...It makes no sense for God to create such obviously flawed, fucked up little being such as ourselves, and then hope we find our way to him...
Would you have a kid, drop his ass off in an umarked place, and then hope that through some kind of miracle, he finds his way back to you..? Mom, I'm home..? C'mon guys...
I don't know how or why common sense goes out of the window when God is the topic...
This whole all powerful God that has this intense focus on micromanagement is ridiculous to me...Humans are not dominoes, set up and falling to provide some big picture we can't see but we we are a part of...
I think humans are walking models of the universe...Just like every star has their own solar system, each human has their purpose and their mission independent of others...It makes no sense for God to create such obviously flawed, fucked up little being such as ourselves, and then hope we find our way to him...
Would you have a kid, drop his ass off in an umarked place, and then hope that through some kind of miracle, he finds his way back to you..? Mom, I'm home..? C'mon guys...
I don't know how or why common sense goes out of the window when God is the topic...
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Highlander65
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Read here: http://www.ayhja.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=348&t=19900
God is very much like your parents. They don't care that your team won the game but they are happy that you are happy. If your team lost, they will hope you are not a poor loser, they didn't raise you that way. When you really need them they are there. When you need to talk, they listen.
God is very much like your parents. They don't care that your team won the game but they are happy that you are happy. If your team lost, they will hope you are not a poor loser, they didn't raise you that way. When you really need them they are there. When you need to talk, they listen.
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