Islam, we have a question:

[raum]

I am not a anti-muslim, but I have never witnessed a virtue to the religion, other than a unique epihany by a teaumatized person. I have never found a spiritual need to really delve into a religion that still condones slavery and beheading, and have never found anything unique to the religion besides these acceptances. I personally believe the religion started as a fringe to Judiasm, and never caught on until the myth of Mohammed was solidified in a peoiple desperately seeking cultural identity.. but if someone could answer these questions, I would be happy to look closer at the substance of this Religion of Peace.

from the LA Times:
By Dennis Prager, Dennis Prager's nationally syndicated radio show is heard daily in Los Angeles on KRLA-AM (870). He may be contacted through his website: www.dennisprager.com.

(1) Why are you so quiet?

Since the first Israelis were targeted for death by Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up in the name of your religion and Palestinian nationalism, I have been praying to see Muslim demonstrations against these atrocities. Last week's protests in Jordan against the bombings, while welcome, were a rarity. What I have seen more often is mainstream Muslim spokesmen implicitly defending this terror on the grounds that Israel occupies Palestinian lands. We see torture and murder in the name of Allah, but we see no anti-torture and anti-murder demonstrations in the name of Allah.

There are a billion Muslims in the world. How is it possible that essentially none have demonstrated against evils perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam? This is true even of the millions of Muslims living in free Western societies. What are non-Muslims of goodwill supposed to conclude? When the Israeli government did not stop a Lebanese massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in Lebanon in 1982, great crowds of Israeli Jews gathered to protest their country's moral failing. Why has there been no comparable public demonstration by Palestinians or other Muslims to morally condemn Palestinian or other Muslim-committed terror?

(2) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

If Israeli occupation is the reason for Muslim terror in Israel, why do no Christian Palestinians engage in terror? They are just as nationalistic and just as occupied as Muslim Palestinians.

(3) Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country?

According to Freedom House, a Washington-based group that promotes democracy, of the world's 47 Muslim countries, only Mali is free. Sixty percent are not free, and 38% are partly free. Muslim-majority states account for a majority of the world's "not free" states. And of the 10 "worst of the worst," seven are Islamic states. Why is this?

(4) Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?

Young girls in Indonesia were recently beheaded by Muslim murderers. Last year, Muslims †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬? in the name of Islam †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬? murdered hundreds of schoolchildren in Russia. While reciting Muslim prayers, Islamic terrorists take foreigners working to make Iraq free and slaughter them. Muslim daughters are murdered by their own families in the thousands in "honor killings." And the Muslim government in Iran has publicly called for the extermination of Israel.

(5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the ancient world because they were Buddhist. Sudan's Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians.

Instead of confronting these problems, too many of you deny them. Muslims call my radio show to tell me that even speaking of Muslim or Islamic terrorists is wrong. After all, they argue, Timothy McVeigh is never labeled a "Christian terrorist." As if McVeigh committed his terror as a churchgoing Christian and in the name of Christ, and as if there were Christian-based terror groups around the world.

As a member of the media for nearly 25 years, I have a long record of reaching out to Muslims. Muslim leaders have invited me to speak at major mosques. In addition, I have studied Arabic and Islam, have visited most Arab and many other Muslim countries and conducted interfaith dialogues with Muslims in the United Arab Emirates as well as in the U.S. Politically, I have supported creation of a Palestinian state and supported (mistakenly, I now believe) the Oslo accords.

Hundreds of millions of non-Muslims want honest answers to these questions, even if the only answer you offer is, "Yes, we have real problems in Islam." Such an acknowledgment is infinitely better †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬? for you and for the world †™ ¢‚¬„¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¢†™‚¢‚¢¢¢‚¬Å¡‚¬¦‚¡¢‚¬Å¡‚¬†™‚¢‚¢¢¢¬…¡‚¬? than dismissing us as anti-Muslim.

We await your response.

[AYHJA]

Hmm...I don't think we have a Muslim on the forum, but I think I can find us one...

Give me moment...

[raum]

i would add that i have profound respect and a little experience of the Sufi Mysticism, which is commendable,.. but being that most of the Muslims in the world refuse to have anything to do with the Sufi, it is not to them I address this question.

vertical,
raum

[Hasin]

post this question at ieXbeta
http://www.iexbeta.com


and whats this "MYTH" of Muhammed? i wont comment anything. just post you're same ..matter of fact, i'll post it

[trashtalkr]

Great questions Raum

[AYHJA]

QUOTE(Hasin)post this question at ieXbeta
http://www.iexbeta.com


and whats this \"MYTH\" of Muhammed? i wont comment anything. just post you're same ..matter of fact, i'll post it

LoL, I doubt if we'll all be dipping to ieX to discuss it, but if you and whomever want to come here to chat it up, feel free...

[Hasin]

and why in fuckin hell, did you not ask these questions at the mosques in UAE?
anyway, im only 17 and dont know much about these types of questions but when someone attacks my religion as blatantly as you have, i should answer something eh?

Point 1, Why are we quiet? you're fucking president is doing a good damn job at killing muslims. Why are the iraqi's quiet? i dont think the messages "GET OUT OF OUR FUCKING COUNRTY" isnt going through to the US Army and the moron of a president. If you actually LET THEM, fix things themselves, they will. Like you said, if a father can kill his daughter for commiting a crime which is against the laws of islam, i think an islamic government can punish criminals who are commiting crimes against the laws of islam too. But you see, they dont have the OPPORTUNITY to. And since all this is happening in the Middle east which is flooded with US Army doing all the work, they really dont need to do anything at all. The US Army are burning bodies, raping daughters in front of their own parents, taking pics, publicly sexualy harassing muslims anyway, so i dont think we, as a muslim community need to do anything.

Point 2, *sigh* heres a scenario, Im a christian boy, i kill 500 people and blow myself up, a witness says i was muslim. thats all i gotta say. Oh and dont even go "but reports show that this muslim man did it because of such and such proof." dont even go there dude, the September 11 main "Terrorist" who supposedly flew the plane into the building, called his dad on Sept. 12 and the other 8 are alive and well living in Middle Eastern Countries. But oh wait, their passports were found at the scene how could they be alive? /ohmy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":o" border="0" alt="ohmy.gif" /> omg

Point 3, umm, the world does NOT need to be free just because the USA is free dude, WTF? we have food here in australia, WHY oh WHY!? are the kids in Niger dieing? we are waiting for you're answer pfft dude, this shit is just funny really. and also, they really dont give a flying fuck about being free. They are brought up that way and they obey the Rules in the QURAN and follow them. Yes the Sharia law is a bit harsh with the stoning and all that, but thats just one thing. Singapore hangs people, do i hear people like you bitching to them? FFS

Point 4, this is the only point i come even close to agreeing with you. Sure some people kill "in the name of Islam". Those, are the fucks that give my religion a bad name in the world....well those people and the US and UK governments. But if you ARE going to attack Islam, maybe you should read the QURAN Translation and see that it clearly states, NOT TO KILL SOMEONE for no reason. Yes, if they hurt you FIRST, you kill them (also, depending on what they do to you first). But my religion does not teach to kill. Why dont you sit down and read the HOLY QURAN and see what it teaches? like I said, theres some fuckheads which take it a bit too seriously and give us a bad name.

Point 5, maybe you should look around, the only places with no Churches are the HOLY Cities of Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia. Theres churches in Riyadh :| lmao, Riyadh is in Saudi Arabia /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> The Taiban Destroyed some of the greatest sculptures? they destroyed the twin towers (as the US Government says) too. Whats you're point? you have a problem, send some more couple of hundred thousand armies and take em to court.
LMAO: "Sudan's Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians. " ...... Japanese killed US Soldiers in WWII.....Hitler's Army Killed many races of many religions.... I dont see you're point in this one either haha

and oh, about the muslim people callin you up and all that bullshit, why dont you just have them arrested and raped in Guantanamo bay or deported or something? They are muslim after all, you dont need any reason to have em arrested. Im sure they are terrorists in some way right?


Anyway in case you are wondering, No im not from the middle east, Im from Bangladesh, Im Muslim and Im living in Australia for 8 years. and im only 17 so dont take my word for it, someone else might write bak to you too, but all the claims i claimed (lol if that makes sence), i researched em beforehand, not just now, a while ago. and some of em are just plain obvious. Anyway, hope i answer the "awaiting world" or whatever you called yourselves.


EDIT: WTF!? i missed this, "MYTH" of Muhammad because they were desperately seeking something to believe in? how about the myth of jesus having a biological father and its all just made up that the Virgin mary had a son without a father? pretty cold of me saying that out eh? fucking idiot

[Hasin]

\"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.:\"

\"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property\"

Does that mean that if I'm Christian, I'm allowed to go to Africa and buy some slaves and beat them? No. Just because we don't have a central figure like the Pope updating the religion with the times, doesn't mean that the views and beliefs of the religion's constituents don't change with time..


BTW, I could post pictures of Hitler meeting with Cardinals and Archbishops.. Does that mean that all Roman Catholics are Nazis...? No.
[/quote]

[raum]

Hasin,

I will take your rude overtones as a sign you didn't get my point, and are not familiar with certain terms I use. I studied INTERNATIONAL religious anthropology. It is obvious to me that you do not understand how I use the word myth. It weas in no way an attack.

The anthropological defintion of the word myth is "A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society." In no way would I seek to declare any myth "false" or "true" for that matter. It is not to prove there is a God that an anthropologist would seek out the religions and sacred myths of the world - It is in discovering how they further develop our understanding of humanity. Sure, as a man, I have sought for my EXPERIENCE of GOD, and I have found more than my share and it is limited to no religion, and encompasses many myths. In this regard more than any other, I have achieved a sense of purpose: To facilitate a cohesive Truth from the many cultural expressions of it that remain in the remanants of our Antedulvian ancestors. I would not deny any other that purpose.

I am not attacking Muslims,.. In fact, these are not my questions. I would not have presented ANY questions to Muslims openly like this myself, i know enough about the reliogion to know that each school would give different answers to many. My questions are much more suitable to Clerics and Imamii. I have even asked some of them and been advised, that my questions demonstrate knowledge of the truth behind the cultural identity of the Ishmaelites who were led by a "Muslim", as opposed to the conquered and converted "Muslims" who are often the most troublesome and dangerous.

I am not unlearned about the Quran, or the Middle East. In fact, quite the opposite. I have written essays on the Quran, and how it linguistically relies upon certain later developments in the Torah, and phoenician and persian myths that pervaded the areas where it began to spawn. The very word "Muslim" from the Hebrew MZL indicates the Quran could not have been in existence, before the kingdom of Solomon. This word MZL replaced the Older "Chokmah", from the Proto-Hebraic Phoenician which would have almost identical to the the Abrahamic tongue. I can give no less than fifteen quotes which indicates certain sura in the Quran were based explicitly on certain Hebrew texts which were considered controversial to the Torah, and led to the expulsion of certain sects of Jews, who disowned their culutral identity, which is also a myth. i can also find places where the text of the Torah was changed to specifically counter a growing idea in the dual kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Yet, I have actually even fasted for Ramadan in the city of Dubai. Ramadan remains one of my favoite stories of the Prophet. It reveals his humanity, and the value of fasting. I mean it, i am not an anti-Muslim. Never did i meet one in all of my days in the Navy, while we rebuilt Kuwait. You know the place that kept getting attacked by Saddam's Iraq because they want keep the freedom they already had?

I stood with the American Muslims in San Francisco protesting the 9-11 attacks, and secured their banners when they were unable to. In exchange, they refused to hold my book on Modern Trends in Jewish Mysticism (a textbook) and dropped it to the ground while I made sure their banner didn't get dirty. An old woman picked it up, which earned her the dirty looks of the men who couldn't even keep the candles lit. That perfectly sums up my experience of Islam, outside of the profound respect for the Sufis I studied with. I have whirled a dervish, hoisted a jambaya, and I learned to recite my favorite Rumi poem with the traditional inflection. That being said, I have a specific plan to begin learning Arabic, after I solidify my Greek abit more. My experience with proto-Hebrew will be of use, no? Why do you think that is?

Of slavery, never does the Torah nor the Bible condone it,.. even in the quote you provide. Rather, with moses, the aaronic priests seek to regulate a already present evil. All of Israel has been enslaved. We understand the history of servitude as a means of achieving humility. It is in this way, Man is tempered to cleave unto God. As the Sufi says, "God grants thee pain so He may grant thee joy." This wisdom is part of every religion i have studied, and they are quite plentiful. And if you wish to attack a religion, any soever,.. do not presume you can attack Catholicsm or modern Christianity and offend me,.. Read my threads and see, I scrutinize them far more than you. I assure you I have more ammunition against them and Judiasm than most Muslims combined. understand my religious views.

So, now, without feeling like I am attacking YOUR religion, understand that I am SCRUTINIZING A RELIGIOUS CLIMATE I HAVE PERSONALLY WITNESSED AND STANDS IN DEFENSE OF NOTORIOUS ACTS IN HOPE THEY SECURE THE DESTINY THEY WISH FOR THEIR RELIGION. The way i did this was posting the article which came from the LA Times.

Now, let's address your comments PRACTICALLY, not in the THEOLOGICAL manner you attempted. You are ill-equipped for that battle, and would only embarass yourself more with improper profanity and broad accusational counter-strikes against things that have no bearing with me, or this topic..

PRACTICALLY:
While much has been written concerning the Transatlantic slave trade, surprisingly little attention has been given to the Islamic slave trade across the Sahara, the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. While the European involvement in the Transatlantic slave trade to the Americas lasted for just over three centuries, the Arab involvement in the slave trade has lasted fourteen centuries, and in some parts of the Muslim world is still continuing to this day.

While Christian Reformers spearheaded the antislavery abolitionist movements in Europe and North America, and Great Britain mobilized her Navy, throughout most of the 19th Century, to intercept slave ships and set the captives free, there was no comparable opposition to slavery within the Muslim world. Even after Britain outlawed the slave trade in 1807 and Europe abolished the slave trade in 1815, Muslim slave traders enslaved a further 2 million Africans. This despite vigorous British Naval activity and military intervention to limit the Muslim slave trade. By some calculations the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Muslim slave trade could exceed 180 million. Nearly 100 years after President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in America, and 130 years after all slaves within the British Empire were set free by parliamentary decree, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, in 1962, and Mauritania in 1980, begrudgingly removed legalized slavery from their statute books. And this was done only after international pressure was brought to bear. Today numerous international organizations including non-christian or bias networks document that slavery still continues in some Muslim countries.

*** Recently, for relevance of content, a former slave from the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, Mende Nazer, had her autobiography: "Slave: My True Story" published. Mende was captured in 1992, she was first a slave to a rich Arab family in Khartoum, and then in 2002 to a Sudanese diplomat in London, from whom she escaped and sought political asylum. This is a great book, and worth the read.

Of punishment in singapore: I have been to Singapore. They hanged a woman for killing her pimp, who killed her baby when he found it. I protested that hanging, and hope I never see another person hanged again. I was reprimanded for even being there, and I was confined for the rest of my stay. I could also see in the people's faces that they disapproved of the execution, and many cried out and carried banners, or burnt offerings to help her in her afterlife. We were so many in protest that they could not imprison us all. which was our saving grace, and we were but a handful compared to the Muslims that could pour into the streets in protest. Where are the crowds in protest in the streets of Islam, even in the frre and cohabitated countries, such as your native Bangladesh, (which i actually would love to visit)?

You stated: "you're fucking president is doing a good damn job at killing muslims." Ironically, so are the terrorists. Look at jordan, 47+dead. More than 40 of them were Muslims. What kind of stupid people blindly kill, and can't even see that they are killing their own supporters and missing the *enemy* entirely!!! And where is this "Get out of fucking country" sentiment most prominent, oh right... OUTSIDE the countries we are in. I have been to Iraq. Lovely place, and the people were quite nice. I even had a cabbie drive back to give me my wallet. Too bad a woman wearing a miniskirt could get splashed with acid for showing her knees, huh? It is not the people, it is the governments which run a racket with the clerics and the people who refuse to stand up to that kind of tyranny. They all bear an uncontreollable resentment that they failed to conquer christiandom. Technically, at that point their religion was proven wrong. They cling to it desperately in hopes it will happen right the next time, just as millions of Christians do their own mistranslation. Difference is, there is no collective support of Christian insurgency... or lack of protest. The divine providence of the Caliph was effectively disproven. Many other religions had this same exact thing happen. They matured, and are still maturing. What of Islam? Muslim governements have never and WILL never punish people who seek to give their lives or kill others to make Islam a globally dominating force. Islam has yet to prove that It is anything more than a kingless kingdom of vigilantes and scared people bowing uder the religious oppression they offer as the only form of saftey afforded them.

Your accusations against the US Army are unfounded and internet heresay. I formally challenge you to present evidence that A.) These rapes are happening AND/OR B.) They are condoned by superior officers or Armed Forces intelligence.

Your lack of knowledge about Sept. 1th logistics makes me suspect you are talking out your ass. I call bull-shit. We have already established you love to just jump the gun and this is a pretty big leap, or you are really fucking gullible and getting fed this shit from people. We have ALREADY established the passports were FAKES. We established each of the men had at least THREE IDENTITIES. We have already established the "main terrorist" for one flight didn't even make it on the plane. And never was it said that their passports were found at the scene. They were probably incinerated, right? We simply know what passports they used to get on the planes, and we know that they were counterfeit. Do you actually think before you type, or just have a bunch of half-founded comebacks that generically get tacked on to replies you make to non-muslims who inquire to Islam's lack of protest to the rape of their own international tolerance. What of the fact no Muslim country has offered France assistance with their riots, or to act as an ambassadorial force to the Muslims burning their own cities down? This had nothing to do with what I asked? Oh, by the way ISLAMIC TERRORISTS CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY. THEY WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE DESTRUCTION. How about a few clerics in the Middle East openly come forward and say "Their Islam is not our Islam." No Christian organization engineered or SUPPORTED any Christian "terrorist" in this century, or the one before it.

You accurately say "theres some fuckheads which take it a bit too seriously and give us a bad name." That I will agree with, and further will i say that every religion has the potential for this quotient. My question is where are the "counter-fuckheads?" Why are there no rallies, or mobs demanding the clerics pronounce the bombing of Muslims in Jordan as "a crime against the people of Allah." Where are the people who are actually TRYING TO CHANGE THEIR COUNTRY OR HAVE THE FUCKHEADS EXCOMMUNICATED? Hard to do when the fuckheads are the ones in control. Why is there no denomination of Islam that seeks tolerance and co-existence with Jews, like the jewish sects that seek to end the strife between these two once noble people who lived in unity under Saladin? Cowering or striking out for a different country, since the fall fo his reign.

^You however, incorrectly state, "But my religion does not teach to kill" Yes it does, it teaches "Kill when you have been offended or threatened." Who judges this, yourself? No, the clerics who enforce Sharia. and clearly it doesn't teach manners to little whelps who feel like retaliating when they are too inflexible to see thay are nto being attacked.

QUOTEEDIT: WTF!? i missed this, \"MYTH\" of Muhammad because they were desperately seeking something to believe in? how about the myth of jesus having a biological father and its all just made up that the Virgin mary had a son without a father? pretty cold of me saying that out eh? fucking idiot

Quite the contrary, I am quite certain that it is not cold of you to say that.

Now, since you lack the intellectual grace to find a way to inslut me, let me demonstrate how to properly insult someone.

Based on the way you replied to me. You categorize the worst part of your religion or any religion, for that matter; the part that simply is offended by anything that is not it. You arer from fucking BANGLADESH, and you take offense to these attacks against your religion,.. when they are ATTACKS AGAINST COUNTRIES that attack us and have nothinjg to do with you and threaten the combined future of humanity and tolerance of your own religion. You heartlessly mentioned killing and slavery and oppression and stonging to death of people and world hunger, "yeah, it's harsh". I say its bullshit, you have never know hunger, and you sure as hell don't know me. I have studied every civilized mystery tradition in the world, and many primitive elements. I regulate the engergy grid of the globe, and You, my ignorant and arrogant little man, are beyond comprehension. I challenge you to prove you know a goddamn thing about Islam, or anything for that matter. I bet you don't. You just blindly follow it and attack anything that threatens your cowardice in the face of your own desire to remain ignorant. As long as you are fed and clothed, you don't give a damn. good little sheep. You are likely a scared little boy, because you come from a country where the common man practices religion without even knowing what it is. In fact, it is considered more socially acceptable to claim a religion in public you know nothing about than admit the truth that you can't be bothered to debate and study the nature of your own soul because your body is taken care of. Pitiful. Being from Bangladesh, chances are you are a descendant of a convert to Islam after the 13th century that feared being outcast with no real ties to society besides a religion forced upon you through peer pressure and familial custom. With jumping on the band wagon in your genes, I bet you have a spine of tin. Because the other True Muslims in the area, who still support the sufi traditions would have instead found a way to illustrate the beauty of the religion, instead of attacking an inquiry indirectly. And something tells me you have no ties to a real spiritual practice of the religion, or ANY religion. Your country has co-habitating learned sects of Christians and Muslims and a lower popuation of blind sheep that bicker among themselves so much they have forgotten what they argue about, I can imagine what part you hail from.

The Sufi I studied with, by the way, came from Bangladesh, and was of the school Naqshbandi, or "Way of the Chain." You may know that name, or not. Who knows, anymore... As you may know, the lineal ancestor of the Naqshbandi disputed the very wording of the Quran as composed by Uthman ibn Affan and was a personal constant companion to Muhammed.

So let me now say, I truly hope you are better than the calibur of my insult. I know i am. I hope I am wrong about you. i offer you the opportunity to learn from this. If so, feel free to prove me wrong, and offer some respect and flexibility, not just counter attack as though I were an uneducated sot who came shoting in all caps and profanity in a forum full of interest and global respect.

vertical,
raum

[AYHJA]

- smoted -